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DISCUSSION 

OF 

THE SUBJECT OF UNIVERSALISM, 

HELD IN 

LAPORT, LORAIN COUNTY, OHIO ; 
From July 29th, to August 6th, 1845 : 

BETWEEN 

Rev. N.DOOLITTLE, 

Universalis t Minister of Akron, Ohio. 

AND iy* 

Rev. JOHN H. POWER, 

Methodist Minister of Delaware, Ohio 

REPORTED BY 

Mr. A. A. WHETMORE, Oberlin Ohio. 

AND REVISED BY THE PARTIES. 

. J 



COLUMBUS, OHIO. 

Tribune Office Print. 

1846. 



: 



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CERTIFICATE. 



Having carefully examined this discussion, as taken, 
down by the Reporter, and compared it with our: notes, 
&c. We say to the public that it is a fair and full exhi- 
bition of the arguments, facts, and documents used by ua 
on the questions discussed. 

NELSON DOOLITTLE. 

JOHN H.POWER. 



Entered according to act of Congress, in the year 1846, by 

Rev. J. S. POWER 

In the Clerk's office for the District Court of Ohio. 



I) /) 1 



PREFACE. 

In presenting the following Debate to the public, I deem 
it proper to mention, briefly, the circumstances which gave 
rise to it. During the exercises that followed the dedica- 
tion of a House of Worship, erected by the M. E. Church, 
the Rev. D. Tenney, Universalist Minister, took exceptions 
to some of the terms used by me in a public discourse on 
that occasion, and addressed me a note, from which I give 
the following : 

" Dear Sir : I attended your lecture of last] evening, 
and observed that you made the following statement: — i 
" That we were exposed to endless death — ' the death that 
never dies;' and as you repeated it a number of times, " 
&c. " Now,. Dear Sir, permit me to enquire by what au- 
thority you made that declaration." *.?*\* "I am ex- 
ceedingly skeptical concerning your opinions. Perhaps 
y'ou can enlighten me on the subject ." 

After acknowledging the receipt of the above note, 1 re- 
plied: 'I have considered the matter, and will now say, 
»at, at the earliest day practicable, I will take occasion 
> lecture on the points of doctrine, named in your note, 
efore this community — of the time and place you shall 
ave due notice.' From his reply to this, we give the fol- 
lowing : 

" I propose that you procure some Minister, in good- 
standing in your Church, to hold an oral discussion with a 
Minister of the Universalist Church, which I will procure, 
of like standing, to discuss the fundamental principles that 
divide the denominations." 

To this I acceded, and the Rev. N. Doolittle was an- 
nounced on the part of the Universal ists ; and the Rev. J. 
H. Power, after being addressed by Mr. Tenney, as well 
as myself, on the subject, accepted the invitation to meet 
him and discuss the questions as stated in connection with 
the rules that governed the debate. 

The subject w r as fully and ably discussed, and a faithful 
report is herewith presented to the reading public. 

PUBLISHER, 



QUESTIONS DISCUSSED. 

Q. I. Do the Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments 
teach the doctrine of the ultimate holiness and happiness of 
the entire human race, in a state of immortality? Mr, 
Doolittle affirms, and Mr. Power denies. 

Q. II. Do the Scriptures of the Old and New Testa- 
ments teach the doctrine that any portion of the human race 
will suffer endless punishment in a state of immortality ? 
Mr. Power affirms, and Mr. Doolittle denies. 

P. S. These questions fully open the whole subject of 
Universalism for full and free discussion. 

RULES. 

I. Each disputant shall choose one chairman, who shall 
choose a third to set with them. They shall decide ques- 
tions of order, keep the speakers to the point in debate, 
and preserve order in the congregation. 

II. The Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments shall 
be the standard of proof and appeal, and when proof is in- 
tended, chapter and verse shall be given. 

III. The disputants shall speak alternately 30 minutes 
at a time, and longer with the consent of the other party. 
This will give the one holding the affirmative the opening 
and closing speech on his affirmative. 

IV. The discussion shall commence July 29th, 1845, at 
12 o'clock, M., and continue from day to day till the dis- 
putants agree to close it. Then they shall have one hour 
to sum up their arguments and make their closing speech, 
provided, they shall not introduce any new matter or ar- 
guments. 

V. The above rules are mutually agreed to and signed 
by the disputants. 

N. DOOLITTLE, 
J. H. POWER. 
Laport, O., July 29th, 1845, 



MR. DOOUTTLE'S OPENING SPEECH. 



Tuesday, July 29, 1845, 1 o'clock, P. M. 

Question — Do the Scriptures of the Old and New Testa- 
ments teach the ultimate holiness and happiness of the 
entire human race in a state of immortality ? 

Gentlemen Moderators and the Audience : — 

Before coming directly to the arguments on the ques- 
tion, I have some preliminary observations to make. 

It is gratifying on this occasion, to see so large and re- 
spectable a company, convened for the purpose of listen- 
ing to the discussion of some of the most important ques- 
tions that can engage the attention of rational and moral 
beings. I feel to rejoice, that the present is an age of 
inquiry, far exceeding any other age that has gone before 
us. A spirit of investigation is abroad in the land, and 
all subjects are undergoing the closest scrutiny. Every 
theory in politics and religion, and every question in the 
sciences and arts, is undergoing the most thorough inves- 
tigation — is being weighed in the balance to see if any 
thing be found wanting. This is a good omen. In the 
dark ages that have passed over the church, this spirit of 
inquiry and investigation was suppressed. It was consi- 
dered dangerous for men to reason, to use the powers and 
faculties that made them moral beings. They were for- 
bidden to follow that course, that would lead them to un- 
derstand and receive truth, and reject error. Those days 
are gone by forever — brighter and better days have come. 
The present, we contemplate as an age of light. Know- 
ledge is increasing, and will continue to advance, though 
earth and hell should conspire against it. The eternal 
years of God, are Truth's ; and though crushed to the 
earth, she will rise again, and ascend aloft to her native 
skies, not a hair of her head will be injured. Let the seeds 
of truth be sown, and they will spring up and yield their 

1 



6 A DISCUSSION 

fruit. We need have no apprehensions, in regard to the 
ultimate progress and triumph of truth. 

But the great question is, What is Truth ? 

There are many, even honest and good people, who 
have never formed any opinion on the great questions, 
which divide the Christian Church. They have come to 
the conclusion, that in the midst of this conflict of opinions, 
it is impossible to tell who is in the right. But, my friends, 
there is no difficulty in this matter. The path of truth is 
as the shining light, growing brighter and brighter the 
further we advance in it. And if we will divest ourselves 
of all prejudice and improper bias, and open our minds can- 
didly to the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, there 
_s no difficulty in arriving at a correct decision. — But in 
doing so, we must not only lay aside all those preconceiv- 
ed opinions and false notions we received from wrong early 
instruction, but we must reason on cause and effect, in reli- 
gion as well as in science ; for the same Cod that establish- 
ed the natural laws, also established the moral laws, by 
which mankind are governed. These laws are invariable 
in their operation and effect. There are certain princi- 
ples laid down, by which we may try any doctrine of re- 
ligion, and know whether it be true or false. What was 
the opinion of the great founder of Christianity ? A tree 
is known by its fruits. What saith the Holy Spirit, by 
the beloved disciple? " Beloved believe not every spirit, 
(or doctrine,) but try the spirits, (or doctrines,) whether 
they are of God; because many false prophets are gone 
out into the world." Here you see it is taught or implied, 
that we may know whether a doctrine is true or not. As 
the Apostle Paul says, *■ Prove all things" Do not take 
for granted, that our creed is right, but prove it ; examine 
yourselves, to see whether ye be in the faith. This 
is the disposition or state of mind we are to be in — ready 
to examine candidly and with inquiring correctness, what is 
truth? And, my friends, I hope you have come here with 
such motives — that you have a single design — that you 
are disposed to know the truth — ready to listen to all the 
arguments on both sides, and to receive the light, and to 
abide by the law and testimony. For if we speak not ac- 



OF UNIVERSALIS^. 7 

cording to the Word, believe us not ; there is no truth in us. 
I want you to bear in mind, that there has been a great 
apostasy — that the church has travelled far out of the 
way. into many and dangerous superstitions. This began 
to prevail in the Apostles time. Hence he says, « In the 
latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed 
to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils, speaking lies in 
hypocrisy, " &c. This has taken place. It prevailed 
through all the dark ages of the church. But in the age 
of the Reformation, light began to dawn ; and from that 
time, the light has been going forth as the morning. A 
brighter day then began to dawn on us, and is now shedding 
its blaze over the church and the world. And it will con- 
tinue to do so, until the principles of the Glorious Gospel 
of the Son of God, shall prevail over the whoie earth. 
And we ought to rejoice, that we live in such a day; we 
ought to rejoice, thai Luther and Melancthon, and the 
other reformers, were raised up and arrayed m the beau- 
tiful garments of Christianity, began such a great and glo- 
rious work. And yet, though they did much, a great work 
still remains to be done. Not all errors are exploded yet. 
Many yet remain. And among the most monstrous, and 
abominable, and terrible into which the church fell, as the 
effect of her apostasy, is the doctrine of endless misery, 
the endless perdition of a portion of the human family. 
But the truth is, this monstrous error is being exploded. 
Some of the best Christians, are now rejecting the doctrine 
of endless woe. And the number on every hand is hourly 
increasing. I am not a prophet, nor the son of a prophet, 
yet I venture to predict, that in fifty years, this doctrine 
will not exist in the church. And if Christians will have 
a creed, the time will come when the doctrine of endless 
woe will be expunged from every creed in Christendom. 
The work is now going on, and will continue to goon, until 
this monstrous doctrine is blotted out of existence. And I 
regret, my friends, that 1 have been under the necessity of 
coming forty miles to meet a gentleman of Elder Power's 
ability, learning, piety and good sense, to combat this doc- 
trine in opposition to him. I sincetely regret, that in this 
age of the world, when there is so much light abroad in 



8 A DISCUSSION 

the land, that a man can be found advocating this doctrine,, 
with a zeal becoming a better cause. I regret that I have 
had to come here, to oppose a doctrine so abhorrent to com- 
mon sense, to reason, and the Bible. This doctrine is at 
war with the best wishes, and most benevolent feelings of 
every christian, and of every friend of humanity. Where 
will you find a Christian, whose heart is warm with love 
for his fellow man, that can pray in accordance with this 
doctrine 1 — that can pray for the endless misery of any 
part of the human family ? No such one can be found 
If he could, it would argue that he had been transformed 
into something else than human — into a demon, filled with 
the most malignant cruelty and hatred. 

Now a doctrine that is at war with all the best feelings 
of the soul, did not, and could not come from God. It 
must be false. And I have all confidence, that before I 
shall leave this house, I shall make it appear, notwithstand- 
ing all the arguments the gentleman may bring up in op- 
position — and I believe he is able as any man that can be 
found. I give him full credit for all his ability, learning 
and zeal. 

My friends, there is one thing yet to be proved from the 
Bible; and that is, the doctrine of endless punishment — 
the endless misery of moral beings, under the Government 
of God. This has never been proved, and never can be. 
Some of the greatest minds have come to see this, and have 
given up the idea of trying any more to do it. Many who 
have been arrayed under different banners of the church, 
members of different denominations, have become con- 
vinced that this is a great and dangerous error, and have 
rejected it ; and are now devoting their energies to the ad- 
vancement of a better doctrine. 

I will observe that I have heard much of our friend's 
prowess aud skill on these questions. It appears that his 
notoriety is very extensive, as a very able and skillful op. 
poser of the doctrine we hold. I have heard much of the 
fame of our friend I have heard things in his favor, and 
some things not in his favor. I hope that all I have heard 
in his favor will be realised at this time, and what I have 
heard of him that is not, we shall find to be false. It h&& 



OF UNIVERSALIS*!. 9 

been reported to me. that it is hard keeping him to the 
point in debate, I hope the Moderators will have no diffi- 
culty on this matter. 

Again : I have heard that he is disposed to take advan- 
tage (if a challenge, to gain the sympathy of a congre- 
gation, by saying he has been challenged to discuss ; and 
I have heard that he intends to make capital out of this, 
at this time. But it is not the fact, that he has been chal- 
lenged on this occasion. If I understand the matter, some 
third persons wanted to have a discussion at this time ; and 
on the part of the opposing side, the friends of Mr. Pow- 
er chose him, and on the part of our friends I have been 
chosen. I believe these are the facts in the premises. So 
I hope we shall have nothing said about a challenge. 1 hope 
it will be seen that we have not come here as Theological 
Gladiators, to see who can gain the victory, or to see who 
can make the most noise; but, that we have come as sin- 
cere inquirers after truth, to get at the knowledge of the 
Scriptures, touching this great question — the final destiny 
of man. And I hope we shall deport ourselves as becomes 
men and christians, investigating such a momentous subject. 

One remark in conclusion. I hope you will all resolve 
yourselves into a jury, and that you will listen to the dis- 
cussion of these questions in candor — listen in the fear of 
God and in the love of man, disposed to give every argu- 
ment its due weight, and make up your minds to give an 
impartial verdict at the close ; and on which side the bal- 
ance of testimony may fall, you will receive it as truth. 
[ Time expired. 

[MR. POWERS OPENING SPEECH.] 

Gentlemen Moderators, and ike Audience — I rise to oc- 
cupy a few minutes of time in some general remarks, be- 
fore we pay particular attention to the question that is 
to be discussed before you on this occasion. And first : 
with regard to my position before this community. The 
gentleman has referred to this ; but I perceive he is la- 
boring under some mistake. I stand before you on the 
invitation of my friend Mr. Boolittle, given by our mutual 
friend Esquire Tenney. In our correspondence, I stated 

1* 



10 A DISCUSSION 

to him distinctly, that I never had challenged any person 
to discussion, and never should, unless I saw stronger rea- 
sons for it than I yet had ; that I still occupied the same 
ground ; that if the Universalists wished a discussion, and 
would invite me, 1 might accept the invitation. His reply 
was, that I was invited. So 1 stand before you, invited to 
discuss, and, if possible, to disprove the whole system of 
Universalism. And of course i should not be complained 
of, if I do this as thoroughly as 1 can. Respecting the 
gentleman's fears that I would make capital of the fact that 
1 had been challenged, they are groundless, for I have no 
need of capital derived from any such source. 

A second remark is : 1 agree with Mr. D. in respect to 
the importance of the question, and this has had much to 
do with my appearing before you at this time. The first 
order of talents and attainments have been called into re- 
quisition, to discuss the affairs of State, systems of finance, 
tariff, &c. — But surely all these are meager, compared 
with the question now before you for investigation — the 
former have their origin, and termination in this world — 
the latter, involves the highest interests of our entire race, 
both in this and the eternal world, 

A third remark of a general character : Persons occu- 
pying the position that 1 do, have been subjected to severe 
animadversions, for a fearless exposure of the system I 
here oppose. And I can scarcely entertain a hope, that I 
will fare better than others on this subject. 

We now call your attention to some facts bearing on the 
question. The system we oppose, does not take its stand 
with others, on Biblical testimony. All other Christian 
systems, though they may differ on some minor points, 
agree on the fundamental principles of the Bible. But 
this is not the case with this system ; on the contrary, it 
differs from all Christian denominations, on all the cardi- 
nal points of religion. We need only to look into Univer- 
salist's publications, and listen to the lectures of their 
preachers, to be convinced of the fact, that the system 
places its broad seal of universal and unconditional con- 
demnation on all other systems of religion under heaven ; 
mid claims alone to contain the truth, in opposition to all 



OF UNIVERSALISM, 11 

others. And hence it is inherently and immutably op- 
posed to all other systems of Bible Christianity. 

The gentleman has already announced that the church, 
of course including all other Christian denominations, hold 
this " most monstrous, and abominable, and terrible doc- 
trine (the effect of her apostasy) of endless misery/' 
Mr. friend, Mr. D., presents himself here to oppose the 
church, that is, all Christian denominations on this point. 
It is in this light we will view it, and in this character meet 
it. And we expect to be able to show that the system is 
not only opposed to the Church, to Bible Christianity on 
this point, but every other cardinal doctrine of religion 
contained in the Scriptures. We wish these points to be 
kept distinctly in view by the community. 

As the gentleman has adduced no proof, or argument, 
and has made no point which requires a reply, 1 need make 
but a few remarks more. 

Mr. D. has very kindly alluded to my reputation ; and 
has attributed to me a character that I have never claimed, 
namely: " an able and masterly disputant." And I was 
not aware that my friends claimed any such character for 
me. In regard to the bad qualities ascribed to me, 1 shall 
make no disclaimer. 1 do not claim to have no defects ; 
and will only say, this audience will be my witness in this 
matter. If they find that I do not keep to the question in 
debate, they will have reason to suppose that these reports 
about me, as alluded to by the gentleman, ore true. 

In conclusion. Gentlemen Moderators — Although I will 
not say of Mr. D., that I have heard that he is apt to wan- 
der from the point, yet his course, in his eloquent speech, 
suggested to me, and perhaps others had the same view, 
that he does not keep very close to the point. For his 
question is, " Do the Scriptures teach," &c. ; yet he never 
touched this point, but came over on to my question, and 
told us what he intended to do hereafter. 

Well, I never went to war without expecting to be scar- 
ed, and I will wait till the gentleman commences regular- 
ly the discussion of his question, before I indulge any fears. 

Before I take my seat, I will say to Mr. D., that we have 
a right to expect of him a clear and lucid definition of the 



12 A DISCUSSION 

points he intends to prove in his affirmation, and that he 
will not deal in generals ; that he will prove his positions 
from the Sacred Hecords, that we may have a fair oppor- 
tunity to join issue on this question. And we have the 
more reason to expect this of him, as he has already called 
up the subject of keeping to the question, and being defi- 
nite in our positions. 

[mr. doolittle's second speech.] 

Gentlemen Moderators — Before coming directly to the 
argument, I will notice one or two statements of Elder 
Power. First, he states, that he stands here merely on 
invitation. If he will be informed, I think he will see his 
mistake. I knew nothing of the discussion till I was 
informed by my friend here, Mr. Tenny. He informed 
me, that he, on the part of the Universal ists, and a brother 
of Elder Power, on the part of the Methodists, had entered 
into an agreement to have a discussion. He stated that the 
Methodists had chosen Eider Power, and, that he chose 
me, and informed me of it. This was the first I heard of 
it. So, I had no part in settling the matter — in proposing 
and agreeing on the discussion. It is not by any invita- 
tion from me, that Elder Power is here. 

He says, that the system of faith and doctrine, that I 
have the honor of defending, is a system of faith that 
stands opposed to all the fundamental doctrines of the 
Bible, and is opposed to all other systems. But, you, who 
are intelligent and informed on this subject, know this is 
not the fact. We do claim to have the best faith and the 
best hope of any department of the Christian Church. 
And why ? Not because we suppose our system is opposed 
to all others, but, because it embraces all the good embra- 
ced in all other systems, all the truth and righteousness, 
and goes farther — it embraces the glorious doctrine of the 
final Restitution of ail things — the ultimate holiness and 
happiness cf every individual of the human family. And 
this is the cardinal point on which we differ. We agree 
on all the practical points held by others ; but, we go 
farther. Our system is more extensive. It stands on the- 



OF UNIVERSALIS!*!. 13 

broad platform of universal benevolence and Christian 
philanthropy. 

To show, farther, the error of my friend, I suppose that 
the foundation of all true Christianity is the belief in the 
existence of one God, and in Jesus Chris f , as the Saviour 
of all mankind. — Now, we believe in God, the Creator 
and moral Governor of the Uuiverse ; and, we believe in 
Jesus Christ, who will purify all and raise them to a state 
of immortality. And, if the gentleman had been informed 
in regard to the Articles of Faith of the great founders of 
Christianity, he would not have made such erroneous 
statements. They required men to believe in God and in 
Jesus Christ, as the true Messiah, and this was all. Says 
the Saviour: "Ye believe in God, believe also in me v 
These are the cardinal points of true Christianity, and 
these we hold. So, I hope the gentleman will not accuse- 
us again, of rejecting all the great, cardinal points. 

I now come directly to the question : " Do the Scrip- 
tures of the Old and New Testaments teach the ultimate 
holiness and happiness of the whole human family, in a 
state of immortality]" I affirm they do. And the first 
position I take is, that through the mighty power a?n! 
redeeming grace of God, the whole creation, every human 
being, will be raised into a state of immortality, of incor- 
ruption. and glory, and purity — to the enjoyment of an 
endless life of holiness and happiness; that. God has revealed 
and taught this in the Scriptures ; that He designs to raise 
the whole human family from a slate of mortality to im- 
mortality, from corruption to incorruption, from universal 
impurity to a state of universal, immortal purity, holiness 
and happiness ; that God has purposed this, as the result of 
His government; that there is no power €o disannul it. 

Now, for proof, we will turn to 1 Cor., chap, xv, where 
Paul labors to establish and demonstrate the glorious 
doctrine of the resurrection of all men, to an immortal 
state of incorruption and glory. The first part of the 
chapter is devoted to the establishment of the fact. In the 
second place he demonstrates the universality of this 
change. Hence says the Apostle, (commencing at verse 
20,) " But now is Christ risen from the dead and become 



14 A DISCUSSION 

the first fruits of them that slept. For since by man 
came death, by man came also the resurrection of the 
dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all 
be made alive." I will here explain the meaning of the 
term Adam. It does not mean as the old Catechism says : 
" In Adam's fall we sinned all." It does not mean that a 
certain individual, the parent of our race, sinned and 
involved the whole world in guilt ; but the term means 
the earthly constitution of man, or the earthy man. We 
have all been clothed with this nature, in this earthy con- 
stitution we have all sinned, as Adam the first man sinned. 
And in this nature we all die, " as in Adam all die." Now 
the question is, how do we die in this Adamic nature f 
This is important, because, from the death we experience, 
in the earthy constitution, we are to be made alive, in the 
heavenly constitution. This death is of a two-fold nature. 
First, we all die a natural, temporal death, as physical 
beings, by a law of our organic nature. Second, we all die 
a moral or spiritual death. And hence it is said, " to be 
carnally minded is death." "The wages of sin is death." 
" Death passed upon all men for that all have sinned," as 
Adam sinned. Here, then, we see, there is a death of a 
two-fold nature, which we die in Adam. First, a physical 
death. We are created mortal beings. Adam was in- 
formed how he was created, viz., of the dust of the earth, 
" For dust thou art and unto dust thou shalt return." We 
likewise die a moral or spiritual death; because, we all 
have sinned. Mark, all men experience this two-fold death. 
Inasmuch as we are organized beings, we must die a na- 
tural death. And, as all have sinned, moral or spiritual 
death has passed upon all men. " As in Adam all die," 
without exception, even so all are made alive in Christ. 
They are made alive in Christ, and they are redeemed 
from this two-fold death and made immortal, made wholly 
incorrupt and happy. For proof of this, read farther. 
'• I hen cometh the end when he shall have delivered up the 
kingdom to God even the Father, when he shall have put 
down all rule and authority all and power." " For he must 
reign till he hath put all enemies under his feet." This 
means the destruction of all enemies. " The last enemy 



OF UNIVERSALIS!*!. 15 

that shall be destroyed is death." What is this last enemy? 
There is no one beyond the last, remember. And this 
last enemy is death. Why is it that such a glorious and 
happy result and termination shall attend this event of 
making all the vast humanity alive in Christ ? Why, my 
friends, it is the destruction of the last evil — the last foe 
to God aud man. Hence says the Apostle, 44 it is sown in 
corruption it is raised in incorruption. It is sown in 
dishonor, it is raised in glory ; it is sown in weakness, it is 
raised in power." There is no corruption in the resur- 
rection state. •' The first man is of the earth, earthy." 
And we have all borne the image of the earthy. The 
second man is the Lord from heaven. So we must bear 
the image of the heavenly. " And as we have borne the 
image of the earthy, w r e shall also bear the image of the 
heavenly." 

Why must we bear the image of the heavenly ? Paul 
gives the reason : " Now this I say brethren, that flesh and 
blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God, neither doth cor- 
ruption inherit incorruption." But he adds : "Behold I 
shew you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, we shall all 
be changed." Mark, all shall be changed ; and this is a 
perfect change— 44 In a moment, in a twinkling of an eye 
at the last trump, for the trumpet shall sound and the dead 
shall be raised." But how raised? Our friend, Power, 
will tell you they will be raised physically right, but 
sin and moral corruption will be inherited by a large 
portion of the human family who will be raised in the re- 
surrection. But not so, saith the Apostle. He says, 4 - all 
shall be changed." And this shall be a glorious change ; 
44 for the dead shall be raised incorruptible. 9 ' 44 For this 
corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must 
put on immortality." So when this corruptible shall have 
put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on im- 
mortality, will there be endless wailing, and woe, and 
damnation? No ; Then shall be brought to pass the say- 
ing that is written : 44 Death is swallowed up in victory, 
O ! Death ! where is thy sting, O ! Grave ! where is thy 
victory." That this change is from both moral and phy- 
sical corruption — that it makes all on whom its power 



16 A DISCUSSION 

passes pure and holy, is plain from what follows : " The 
sting of death is sin and the strength of sin is the law. 
But thanks be to God who giveth us the victory through 
our Lord Jesus Christ. " How do we have the victory? 
44 As in Adam ail die even so in Christ shall all be made 
alive. When this takes place, then shall come to pass the 
saying that is written : ik O Death ! where is thy sting, O 
Grave ! where is thy victory?" This saying is found in 
the prophesy of Isa. xxv. 7, 8, " And he will destroy in 
this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people 
and the vail that is spread over all Nations. He will swal- 
low up death in victory, and the Lord God will wipe away 
tears from off all faces, and the rebuke of his people shall 
be taken away from off all the Earth, for the Lord hath 
spoken it." Does this passage teach a partial salvation — 
the endless misery of part of mankind ? No; It contains 
as glorious a promise as can be found in the Bible, " God 
will wipe away tears from off all faces," Paul quotes this 
passage, and applies it to the Resurrection slate. In the 
Resurrection this prophesy will be fulfilled, and not before ; 
then the vail that is spread over all nations wilt be taken 
off; then all will shout victory ; then shall we triumph 
over death, sin, and corruption, over every foe — a glorious 
immortal triumph ! All men then will be redeemed, san2- 
tified, and purified. The great author of our salvation 
will tell you, that those who attain this state, will be equal 
to the Angels: Luke xx, 35, 36, "But they which shall 
be counted worthy to obtain that world and the resurrec- 
tion from the dead, neither marry nor are given in mar- 
riage, neither can they die any more, for they are equal 
with the Angels, and are the children of God, being the 
children of the resurrection." This will be a glorious 
change. Paul speaks of it again, in Romans viii, 20, 21, 
" For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willing- 
ly, but by reason of him who haih subjected the same in 
hope. But the creature itself shall be delivered from the 
bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the 
children of God." The Apostle is here refering to this 
very resurrection. The creature shall be delivered. How 
delivered ? Not from physical corruption merely, but 



ON UNIVERSALISM. 17 

from the corruption of sin, into the glorious liberty of the 
children of God. "For we know that the whole creation 
groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now," not 
a part of the creation, mark! but the whole. "And not 
only they, but we ourselves also which have the first fruits 
of the spirit"— re fering to an ancient custom of the Jews 
in bringing the first fruits as an offering, and in this they 
received a pledge that all their harvests should be gather- 
ed in and safely stored in the garner. This is the stron- 
gest language the Apostle could use in proof that the whole 
creation shall be gathered into the kingdom of God. This 
my friends is the conclusion of the whole matter. Here is a 
chain that cannot be broken. My friend here, (who I un- 
derstand has been a forger of iron,) knows what a strong 
chain is. Here is a whole chain without a swivel on which 
he may exert all his power — not a link will he be able to 
break. 
[ Time expired. 

[mr. power's second reply.] 

Gentlemen Moderators — I shall wave any remarks the 
gentleman has made relative to our position here in regard 
to the challenge, only remarking that I have the docu- 
ments to prove that what I have stated is correct. 

1 will now make a few observations; 

1st. On the gentleman's disclaimer that the system he 
maintains is not opposed, cardinally, fundamentally oppo- 
sed to all others. In proof of his orthodoxy, he quoted 
"ye believe in God, believe also in me," and stated that he 
believed in God and in Christ his redemption, and salva- 
tion through his redemption; that he agreed with all oth- 
er denominations in this. But mark this difference. The 
gentleman's system maintains that we may disbelieve in 
God — in Jesus Christ — his redemption — the Bible and ev- 
ery truth revealed to man, and yet be as sure of salvation 
and heaven as if we should believe and practice all these 
truths. Here his system and ours are fundamentally and 
diametrically opposed, 

2 



18 A DISCUSSION 

Again — under the same head is a link of the gentle- 
man's supposed strong chain, and that two without a swiv- 
el. In proof of his theory, he quoted "as in Adam all 
die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive," This he has 
undertaken to explain. He told us that Adam did not 
mean a solitary man — an individual that had sinned, and 
that in consequence of that sin, death entered into the 
world: but means the physical constitution of every man. 
And here you see that the system he maintains is at direct 
and immutable issue with all other systems in Christendom. 

The gentleman referred to my art as a blacksmith. Gen- 
tlemen Moderators, I never was ashamed of my profes- 
sion. A greater personage than myself was a mechanic. 
However, to try his chain we will place his argument on 
the anvil and see if it will stand the hammer. 

The gentleman is so far committed to his system, that 
he cannot get away from the position that Christ and Ad- 
am stand on the same ground- He has given us adeffin- 
ition of Adam — a constitution of no particular man, but a 
certain earthy nature belonging to every man. Then of 
course, Christ is not a particular man, a single individual, 
but a constitution— something that the Bible knows noth- 
ing of, an indefinable unknown something, which man nev- 
er saw and never can see. So you see this system is di- 
rectly opposed to all systems of Christianity in the world. 
It utterly rejects Jesus Christ as a real person or being. 
So he must give up this point that his system is not oppo- 
sed to all others. 

You see that if his chain has not a swivel, it has at least 
a crooked link which cannot bear the hammer of truth. 

Mr. D, in undertaking to dispose of some difficulties in 
his way, has fallen into others far greater. Should we 
concede every thing that he has maintained in regard to 
the resurrection of the body, it leaves the main point, name- 
ly the salvation of the soul untouched. We admit that 
there is to be a change of the body — a resurrection of all 
mankind. But that does not touch the question of the soul 
at all. The Apostle is speaking in the 15th chapter of 
1st Cor, of the resurrection of the body. The question 
of the soul's salvation is referred for decision to other 



ON UNIVERSALISM. 19 

portions of the sacred scriptures. Then to allow all Mr. 
D. has contended for in his exposition of this chapter, he 
has only gofto the resurrection of the body, and the soul is 
left unprovided for. 

A remark in reference to his last quotation from the 8th 
of Romans. This text must be understood literally, with- 
out any qualification, or it must be restricted. If the for- 
mer, then the earth, the beasts, and every living thing, 
will have to be taken to heaven: but if in the latter, all its 
supposed support of the system vanishes. 

What is meant by the liberty of the sons of God? In 
John I. 11, 12, we read in reference to the Savior, "He 
came to his own and his own received him not. But as 
many as received him, to them gave he power to become 
the sons of God, even to them that believed on his name." 
Those only are the children of God that believe in Christ, 
and receive him as their Savior. Here in Romans, the 
Apostle pens a prediction of what shall take place. The 
whole world shall have the offer of salvation through Je- 
sus Christ; and those who accept the offer shall be deliver- 
ed from the bondage of corruption. These are the only 
remarks I will make at present on Mr. D's proof, and pro- 
ceed to occupy your time a few minutes, with another 
view of the subject. 

The discussion if I have correct views of it, is design- 
ed to be of practical use to the people in attendance, and 
we hope it is the desire of all that it shall be made scriptu- 
rally and spiritually profitable. 

We will now notice 1st. the points on which we appear 
to agree, for the agreement is but in appearance, and not 
in fact ; and 2d. the main points on which we disagree. 

The issue is not whether God has made provision for 
the resurrection of the body. Nor whether the gospel is 
to be preached to the whole world. Nor whether God has 
made provision for the salvation of the whole human fami- 
ly. These are points in which, in appearance at least, we 
agree. We rejoice to maintain that God has made the 
fullest provision for the salvation of every member of the 
human family. But the practical question is, does not 
God require something of man, in order to avil himself of 



20 A DISCUSSION 

this salvation? Here we are at direct issue. The system 
we oppose, releases man from all obligation whatever, 
from the performance of every duty as a condition, 
or means of salvation in heaven. While we maintain the 
contrary, that God has fixed certain conditions on which 
man may obtain eternal life. Mark, here is the point on 
which we join issue. And I will here remind you to ob- 
serve and see if we keep to the point, and if we do not 
then pass your verdict of condemnation, 

Mr. D's proof, thus far, falls infinitely short of reach- 
ing the point which he wants to maintain. To touch the 
point he must show from the scriptures that God re- 
leases every member of our race, with reference to our 
final salvation, from every shadow of responsibility. If 
this is not his position, if he says God does hold man mo- 
rally responsible, as a condition of his salvation, then he 
must show from the Bible, that every man has or does, ful- 
ly discharge this responsibility. But this he cannot do. 
This position is wholly destitute of evidence from the Bi- 
ble, and the world is too full of eyidence to the contrary. 

But another feature of difference between us, and in 
which the system we oppose, is diametrically at war with, 
and opposed to all true systems of Christianity, is, that 
man may employ all the power he possesses both physi- 
cal and moral, in rebellion against God, in disbelief of his 
word, in blasphemy against his maker, or in any other 
way, and that it will not make the least difference about 
his salvation. Now Mr. D. has to prove all this, and to 
prove too, from the holy scriptures, that it is out of man's 
power to do any thing whatever to keep himself out of 
heaven — that no individual can by living in the greatest 
possible wickedness and blasphemy, and dying in this state, 
do any thing to hinder his entering the kingdom of glory 
as soon as he leaves this world. 

Every individual, who has ever reflected a moment, 
with reference to the future state, could but ask the ques- 
tion — doos God require any thing of me in regard to my 
future state of existence ! or has He released me from 
all responsibility respecting it? 

Gentlemen — [ have a right to expect that my friend 
here will take up these points, and sustain the positions of 



ON UNIVERSALISM. 21 

his system from the Bible. God has revealed to us that 
we are to exist in the future, and we are desirous to know, 
what shall be our state there, and whether we can do any- 
thing in this life to affect our state of existence in the 
future. And as the system Mr. D. maintains, claims alone 
to be true, we demand of it to tell us plainly and clearly, 
whether we have any duty to perform to secure eternal 
salvation. 

We will now in a few* remarks call up the attention of 
the gentleman again to the points we have made ; for he 
has informed us that he is in favor of keeping to the point, 
and I wish to present them particularly to his view. We 
have disposed of his scripture testimony. We have shown 
the difficulty into which he has gotten by his explanation 
of the term Adam: that^according to it, Christ is not a real 
person or being, but only a constitutional nature belong- 
ing to man. Again, his dilemma in his exposition of the 
passage in the 8th of Romans — if he considers it figura- 
tively, it affords no proof whatever — if literally, he must 
take all things both animate and inanimate to heaven. 
We have noticed some points in which we appear to agree, 
and some in regard to which we disagree. We stated the 
question, has God released man from every shadow of re- 
sponsibility in this life, in reference to a future state of 
existence, if the gentleman takes the ground that man 
is released from all responsibility, then he is at direct issue 
with the scriptures. If he takes the ground that he is not, 
then he must show 7 that every man has fully met all these 
responsibilities, or he perfectly fails to sustain his system, 
[ Time expired. 

[mr. doolittle's thtrd speech.] 

My friends I should be very sorry to have any of you 
get alarmed, especially at the outset, in reference to the 
heretical sentiments which we hold. I observe that my 
friend here has been trying to make you believe that we 
are very wide from the mark, awfully in the dark, and 
at a great distance from the cardinal points, that we are 
the greatest of heretics, if not the chief of sinners. And 
I did suppose that he could forge out some better argu- 

2* 



22 A DISCUSSION 

merits, (for I would remark that 1 alluded to his occupation 
not with any disparagement, for I hold it to be rather an 
honor than a dishonor to him.) Some of the most able 
advocates of our belief have been mechanics. But I did 
suppose that he could forge out something better than such 
severe and false charges against our system. 

He has been wandering far from the question, and has 
been talking about the moral accountability and free agen- 
cy of man in this life. Now this has nothing to do with 
the question. The question is, " Do the Scriptures of the 
Old and New Testaments, teach the ultimate holiness and 
happiness of every individual of the human race in a state 
of immortality 1" This is a question of Theology, not of 
the practical duties of men in this life. I came here to 
discuss this question. You can see what our friend has 
said about man's responsibility, &c. is entirely foreign 
from the question ; it has nothing to do with the points at 
issue. As it respects man's moral accountability, he charges 
me with denying it. But I do not. I hold that man is re- 
sponsible, as a neighbor, as a Christian and as a citizen — 
responsible in many ways, and if he violates these responsi- 
bilities, he is held accountable, and punished accordingly. 
I believe this, as fully as my friend does. And why he 
should charge me with not believing it, I know not, unless 
it was to prejudice your minds, and make my system look 
awful, and thus excite your fears. But, my friends, do not 
be frightened. I want you to keep cool. There is no 
bear in the way — no lion — no devouring tiger, that will 
rend you to pieces. When you see any beast with horns 
or claws, you may begin to be frightened; but until then, 
you need not be alarmed. 

And now, although it is all together gratuitous, and not 
to the point, I will notice the charges he brought against 
me, of holding such heretical sentiments, viz : that man's 
immortal destiny, his eternal salvation and redemption in 
a state of immortality, do not depend on his acts or faith 
in this life. I do hold these sentiments, and God holds 
them too, and has proclaimed them — the Apostle has pro- 
claimed them — the great Author of Christianity has pro- 
claimed them — the Apostle has taught that salvation is 



ON UNIVERSALISM. 23 

not of works, lest any man should boast, but the gift of 
God is Eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Does 
my friend mean, when he charges me with holding, that 
"God releases man from all responsibility in this life," that 
this is in direct opposition to what he holds ? Does he hold, 
that man's salvation is dependent on his works ? No. As 
a Preacher of the Gospel, he will tell you, (and so will 
every preacher of his denomination,} that the salvation 
of man is the gift of God — that it is not a salvation of 
good works. He will not base it on the score of merit 
any more than I do. Why then charge me with holding 
something so heretical — something that would deluge the 
whole church and world with wickedness? That man can 
merit by his good works immortal life, I do not hold- 
neither does the Bible teach it ; Salvation is the gift of God. 

Now with respect to this Adam, our friend is trying to 
make you believe we are in error on this point. What 
ground did I take on this. W T hy as Paul says, "As in Adam 
all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." This 
was proved to a demonstration by testimony from Holy 
Writ — that the whole human race should be redeemed and 
delivered into the glorious liberty of the children of God — 
that this was not to be a partial deliverence— that we should 
be clothed upon with immortality, and still possess the 
character of devils? This change was to be an entire 
change, from corruption to incorruption,. from sin to holi- 
ness. This was my position — this was the strong chain I 
called him to take hold of, to see if he could break it. But 
after trying it upon his anvil, he comes to the conclusion 
that one link is crooked, but not broken, and that one stroke 
of his hammer would break it. 

But still he did not break it, and I challenge him to do 
it. But he was mistaken about there being one crooked 
link. There is not one ; the chain is whole; it cannot be 
broken. It is the purpose of God, in which he was 
governed by his immutable justice, his eternal love and 
benevolence, that man, created in His own image, though 
fallen and depraved, should ultimately be redeemed into 
a state of glorious immortality, incorruption and holiness. 
And what has the Gentleman, here, done with this chain 



24 A DISCUSSION 

of argument ; has he broken a link ? No ! He has not even 
touched it. We now ask him to come right up to this 
point and take hold of it. Do the Scriptures teach the 
entire holiness and happiness of the whole human race? 
He will find enough to do here, on this point, without 
taking any wider range ; for, right in the outset of this 
discussion, I deem I have set forth an argument that 
cannot be overthrown. It will haunt the Gentlemen till 
doom's day, like a ghost. He cannot get over it nor around 
it. It will rise up before him, like a mountain. It is 
nothing short of the eternal purpose of God — what He 
had determined to do for the human race, — that He will 
place man beyond the reach of sin — beyond the reach of 
every evil and every foe, and raise him to a state of holiness 
and happiness in heaven. And He holds man as with a gol- 
den chain, the indissoluble chain of love. He will prepare 
him for an inheritance incorruptible and full of Glory. 

Now what more shall we do to strengthen this argu- 
ment. I have given the gentleman all he wanted, and 
more than he claims, and yet the chain is too strong to be 
broke. The strongest giants in theology have grappled 
with this argument, but they have found it like the pillars 
of heaven — it cannot be shaken. 

Again : he charges me w r ith being heretical. If I am, 
it is not the want of early Orthodox instruction. In my 
young days, I had to commit to memory the Catechism. 
Every Saturday, I must have my lesson; J there learned 
this, " In Adam's fall we sinned all." I know that one 
hinge of the gentleman y s creed is the doctrine contained 
in this passage— -total depravity. This doctrine I confess 
1 do not hold. I do not understand it to be taught in the 
Bible. Paul says, "By one man sin entered into the world." 
Adam we admit was the first sinner, but that all men be- 
came totally depraved by his sin, does not follow. " So 
death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned." We 
see, then, that death passed upon all, or all are depraved, 
not because Adam sinned, but because all have sinned. 
By Adam I said, I understood the Adamic nature, the 
earthy constitution. This is what the term Adam means 
in the original Hebrew, Earthy, Red, human, the earthy 



ON UNIVERSALIS!*!. 25 

man. In Adam, the earthy man, we all die both a moral 
and physical death, but in Christ, the spiritual man, we 
are to be made alive. We have all sinned as Adam sin- 
ned, because we have the same nature that Adam hado 
We die just as Adam died. " We all have sinned, and 
come short of the Glory of God." And we all are to be 
made alive in Christ ; and when made alive in Christ, we 
shall be incorruptible, immortal, holy and happy. 

My friend tries to do away with the force of the passage 
from the 8th of Rom. He tries to make out that it proves 
too much. But the question is, does it prove what I want it 
to prove. I? it does, that is all I want, and if he makes it 
prove more, I have no objection. The Apostle says, "The 
creature itself shall be delivered." The best critics will 
tell you Creature is the same as Creation. And the crea- 
ture is made subject to vanity. God made man as he saw 
fit to make him, subject to sin and death ; but he has pre- 
pared a deliverance for him, from the bondage of corrup- 
tion into the glorious liberty of the children of God. But 
my friend says, this proves too much — that if understood 
in a literal sense, it will include all the beasts of the field, 
the whole animate creation. Well, if it proves this, I 
have no objection. The Rev. John Wesley preached this 
doctrine. Me contended that the whole animal creation, 
literally, should be clothed with immortality, and com- 
pensated for all they had suffered here — that literally the 
beasts of the field should lie down in green pastures and 
beside the still waters. Now if my friend wishes to un- 
derstand this as Mr. Wesley did, I have no objection. But 
whether it does or does not have this extensive significa- 
tion, it means at least the whole intelligent creation — that 
all moral agents shall have a glorious redemption — that 
all created intelligences in this lower world, that have 
been subject to sin and vanity, misery and death, shall be 
delivered into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 
If it means any more, I have no objection. I am certain 
it means all this. 

I hope our friend will come up now and take hold of 
this argument again — I pledge myself that I shall not lose 
siGjht of it. It becomes him to use his time to the best 



26 A DISCUSSION 

advantage, and not spend it in wandering from the point. 
Again, I quote, respecting the will of God in regard to 
this resurrection, for it is the will of God, that man 
should be thus raised, I. Tim. ii., 3, 4; " For this is good 
and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour," (what is 
good and acceptable? what follows?) " who will have all 
men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth." 
He will not only have them to be saved, but, come to the 
knowledge of the truth, which is essential to this salvation. 
This is proclaimed ds the will of God. Now, are we certi- 
fied, on the part of God, that he will accomplish this work ? 
We are ! Dan. iv, 35 — " And all the inhabitants of the 
earth are reputed as nothing and he doeth according to 
his will in the army of heaven and among the inhabitants 
of the earth, and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, 
what doest thou ?" Here God tells us, he doeth according 
to his will, and his will is, that all men should be saved. 
For further evidence of God's will towards us, see Eph. i. 
8,9, 10: "Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all 
wisdom and prudence, having made known unto us the 
mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure, which 
he hath purposed in himself, that in the dispensation of 
the fullness of times, he might gather together in one all 
things in Christ, both which aiae in heaven and which are 
on earth, even in him." [Time expired. 

[mr. power's third reply.] 

Gentlemen Moderators- -I am inclined to think, that the 
gentleman intended something in stating, when on the 
floor the first time, that it was difficult to keep me to the 
question. With less acquaintance with the system than I 
have, I might be a little surprised. But a full acquain- 
tance with it, has fully prepared me for this. And 1 will 
state that I placed this postcript at the bottom of these 
questions for just such an exigency as this. For I knew 
it was the custom of Universal ists in these discussions, to 
make, as lawyers say, a false issue. I wrote this postcript 
that there might not be the opportunity of doing this at 
this time, and I will refer him to that note, in order to save 



ON UNIVERSALIS!*. 27 

him from any further reference about my not keeping to 
the point. 1 will read it : " These questions fully open 
the whole subject of Universalism for full and free discus- 
sion." [Here Mr. Doolittle arose, and stated that he had 
not thus understood it — that it gave liberty to discuss any 
thing and every thing, just as the speaker chose.] After 
which, Mr. Power again arose and said : Gentlemen Mode- 
rators — I rather regret to see the gentleman manifesting so 
much uneasiness, just as we have approached the main 
body of the discussion. And I will just remark, that I 
placed this postcript in as plain, unambiguous language as 
I could think of; meaning just what it says. Now, sure- 
ly, it must be a singular genius that can suspect any thing 
from such language as this. I understand, gentlemen, that 
the question before us, opens the vital and fundamental 
ground of the subject which comes before us. I under- 
stand that it gives the gentleman the same privilege that 
1 have ; to take the strong features on my affirmative, and 
make them false if possible. This was the position I took. 
And 1 assure you 1 did not leave my family sick, and come 
a hundred miles, merely to leave my antagonist to take 
the ground just as he pleased, and confine me to it; but 
to go into the main question, and discuss the general prin- 
ciples of Universalism. And before we leave, the gentle- 
man will have full opportunity to discuss the entire ground 
of my system. 1 hope my friend will not be troubled so 
soon, for I give him notice, that this is but the beginning 
of sorrows for his system. For I intend to take the whole 
ground, and show that the positions that he has taken, are 
all fundamentally false. 

Now to the point. Mr. D., when last up, quoted from 
Daniel, to prove the sovereignly of Jehovah. On this 
point we have no issue. That God is an infinite being, 
and acts according to his own will and purpose, 1 most fully 
believe. But that it is the will of God to release man in 
this state of being, from every shadow of responsibility in 
reference to his future existence, and bring him by an act 
of Divine Sovereignty into a state of holiness and happi- 
ness — this we deny. The gentleman has quoted from n 
chap, of Paul's first letter to Timothy. Before I make 



28 A DISCUSSION 

any remarks on this, I wish to notice two positions. I 
stated that we agree, at least in form, that God has made 
provision for the salvation of the whole human family in 
the future world. This then is not the point at issue. 
Again, we maintain that man has certain duties to perform, 
as conditions of future happiness. While Mr. D. main- 
tains God releases man from all conditions, ergo, we hold 
that God requires faith of every adult person, as a condi- 
tion of eternal life ; while the gentleman's system main- 
tains that God does not require faith as a condition of this. 
Again, we maintain that so far from God's releasing man, 
he requires him to reform ; and if he does not reform, and 
thus avail himself of the grace of God, he will be eter- 
nally lost. The system I oppose, maintains that God re- 
quires no reformation in man, as a condition of his salva- 
tion — that God does not require man to love his Maker in 
this world, to be a subject of eternal salvation hereafter. 
It maintains that God saves men, though they live and die 
in entire unbelief, without piety, in cherished, settled hos- 
tility to God. We say, his system maintains all this — 
that it is the stern will and purpose of God to save all, 
notwithstanding all the crimes they may commit in this 
world from birth till death. Now you will recollect that 
he has the affirmative, and it is for him to prove this; and 
it is for you to judge whether he does bring this proof. 

The gentleman remarked, that if men sinned, God would 
punish them. But his system maintains that all this pun- 
ishment takes place in this world. Now these are the 
positions we deny , and we challenge (using the term re- 
spectfully) the gentleman to bring proof from the Word of 
God, where He releases man from all obligation — to bring 
a passage that has any shadow of proof, where God re- 
leases man from all obligation to reform — to bring proof, 
where God releases man from obligations of loving his 
Maker, with reference to his final salvation in a future 
world. And we are aware that we invite him to a great 
task, for the proof is not to be found in the Bible. 

I will now refer a moment, to Mr. D.'s quotation from i 
Tim., •• For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God 
our Savior ; Who will have all men to be saved and come 



ON UNIVEESALISM. 29 

unto the knowledge of the truth." Now, if he maintains 
that this has reference to eternal salvation, as he has done, 
he must admit that God requires the fulfilling of duties ; 
that supplications, prayers, &c, (as in the first verse,) be 
made, as a condition of eternal salvation. Then he has 
either to abandon his ground, that all men will be uncon- 
ditionally saved, or prove that all men do, always have 
done, and always will, as a matter of fact, fulfil all these 
conditions. 

Again : the sovereign will of God is brought in support 
of his theory. But to avail the system anything, this will 
of God must be unconditional. If God will, uncondition- 
ally, have all men come to the knowledge of the truth, and 
be saved, then, of course, the system will stand. But, I 
ask, if it is the will of God that all men should uncondi- 
tionally come to the knowledge of the truth and be saved, 
in this world. If it is, then His will is not done ; for we have 
too appalling evidence all around us, that all men do not 
come to the knowledge of the truth in this life. Then 
here is the gentleman's dilemma — either God does not will 
that all men should come to the knowledge of the truth in 
this life and be saved, or his will is not done. He may 
take just which horn he pleases. If he says it is not God's 
will that all men should come to the knowledge of the truth 
in this life and be saved, then all men have perfect license, 
so far as the pleasure of God is concerned, to go on in all 
the sin and crime they please. But is this in accordance 
with the character of Deity ? The idea is shocking and 
blasphemous ! Then it is plain, that God's will in the sal- 
vation of man is rot unconditional, and this scripture 
avails the gentleman's system not the least, 

A word now in regard to the quotation from Rom. viii. 
Mr. D., has conceded that the scripture here referred to, 
has to be understood in a restricted sense — meaning all 
intelligent beings. We have nothing to do with Mr. Wes- 
ley's notions about the resurrection of beasts. We have 
only to refer you to what we said before — that in this text 
there is not one word about the salvation of the whole human 
race. Those spoken of, were to be brought into the liberty 
of the children of God. But who become the children of 

3 



30 ADISCUSSION 

God? John says, John i, 12: " But as many as received hiiB 
to them, [and them only,] gave he power to become the son<* 
or children of God, even to them that believe on his name." 
Here then, is a condition of becoming the children of God, 
and we know this condition is not fulfilled . by all men. 
This text, then, affords no proof of universal salvation. 

Again: We will turn to the 15th of 1st Cor. I know Mr. 
D. plants himself here, as firmly as he can ; for this is his 
strongest position, on which he mostly relies. You recol- 
lect we said this refers only to the resurrection of the body, 
and has not a word of reference in regard to the future 
condition of the soul. And we repeat, that if we should 
concede all he would ask in regard to the resurrection of 
the body, it would not reach the state of the soul. 

Again: He has not met the difficulty that by making Ad- 
am an ideal being, as Christ and Adam were contrasted, he 
makes Christ also an ideal being. He tells us that Adam 
means the earthy constitution of man. Well, then Christ 
must mean, not the Christ of the Bible, not the literal 
Christ that bore our sins on the tree: not the Christ that 
was crucified for our redemption, rose from, the dead, as- 
cended into haven, to prepare a place for us — but an ideal 
—a constitutional Christ — a kind of spiritual nature that 
belongs to every man. Is not this a virtual rejection of 
Christ? Mr. D. touched this point, saw the difficulty and 
left it. The manner in which he passed over it, shows that 
he feels this to be a real difficulty. But to show that his 
position contradicts the facts of the Bible, I refer to Ro- 
mans v. 18. "Therefore as by the offence of one, judg- 
ment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the 
righteousness of one, the free gift came upon all men to 
justification of life." Here surely it is plain that per- 
sons are referred to in their representative character, and 
not as mere ideal constitutional natures of every man. 

A. word in reference to the argument on the resurrec- 
tion. To show that the resurrection of the body does not 
affect the condition of the soul, I will give authority that 
cannot be questioned, John v. 28, 29, "Marvel not at this, 
for the hour is coming in the which all that are in the 
graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they 



OF UNIVERSALISM. 31 

that have done good to the resurrection of life; and they 
that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." 
Jesus Christ here teaches the doctrine of a spiritual resur- 
rection, and in addition the resurrection of the body. That 
he has reference to the resurrection of the body there can 
be no doubt, " All that are in their graves shall hear his 
voice." This must refer to the body. Here then is a 
resurrection of the body which does not affect the charac- 
ter or condition of the soul; for some are raised to life, 
and some to damnation. [Ti?ne expired. 

[mr. doolittle's fourth speech.] 

The first thing I shall notice my friends is the proof us- 
ed by my friend Power, to sustain the saying, "In Adam's 
fall we sinned all." The doctrine is that by Adam's sin 
all mankind are totally depraved — incapable of thinking a 
good thought, speaking a good word, or doing a good deed, 
— that each individal is a mere lump of moral dross. 

Now, perhaps the gentleman's marvelousness is large 
enough to believe such a doctrine as this — but I cannot 
believe it, and I am not alone in this, some even who were 
once firm believers of this doctrine, have rejected it; some 
of the old school have lately come out against it. Professor 
Stewart no longer holds this doctrine. The mind, he says, 
in coming into this world, is like a sheet of white paper, 
capable of receiving good or bad impressions. 

Says the Savior, "except ye be converted and become 
as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of 
Heaven!" Does this look like the doctrine of total depra- 
vity? "Like little children" — implying that all come in- 
to this world free from depravity and sin, already fit for 
the kingdom of heaven. 

_ The Apostle Paul never taught the doctrine that we all 
sinned in Adam. He did teach that the first man in the 
garden of Eden sinned. He teaches too that death is the 
effect of transgression, of sin, and that death passed upon 
all men. But why passed upon all men? Because all 
have sinned, not because Adam sinned. So we cannot lay 
all the consequences of sin upon Adam, or upon the devil, 



82 A DISCUSSION 

but all suffer the consequences, because all sin. "The soul 
that sinneth it shall die." "The father shall not be punish- 
ed for the iniquities of the son, nor the son for the trans- 
gressions of the father. 

Again: my friend says that the resurrection in raising 
the body to a state of immortality and glory does not effect 
the condition of the soul i. e. if the man dies a drunkard, he 
will remain a drunkard to all eternity, if he dies a gambler, 
he will remain a gambler to all eternity — if a fiddler, he 
will eternally remain a fiddler — so that every propensity 
he may indulge in this life, and die with it, he will have 
the same propensity throughout eternity — that when the 
body is raised incorruptible, the disposition of the mind 
remains the same. But in this he comes in contact with 
Paul, not with me only. Paul will have this change ef- 
fect the soul as well as the body, affect the whole man, all 
the rational and physical being. "It is sown" says he a 
"natural body, it is raised a spiritual body." In the whole 
description here, he contrasts the present condition of man 
in a state of corruption, with his future condition in incor- 
ruption and glory, And now if this change is not to effect 
the soul, why does he not tell us. "We shallall be changed."* 
Physical nor moral corruption, cannot inherit heaven. 
How shall we be changed? So changed that then shall be 
brought to pass the saying that is written. "Death is 
swallowed up in victory. O! death, where is thy sting! 
O! grave where is thy victory." To show us more clear- 
ly, that this is a moral as well as a physical change, he 
says " The sting of death is sin," and he has told us "the 
last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. All this to 
take place in the resurrection, and yet the gentleman has 
the presumption, in the face of all that Paul says here, to 
come forward and tell us this change is a mere physical 
change, and does not alter the moral condition of the soul. 

Again ; I notice another statement very wide from the 
truth — that the system of Universal ism requires no change 
whatever in man, that he may enter heaven. This is the 
substance of the statment, and it is calculated to prejudice 
the hearers— now it is anew and strange idea that we 
hold that a man can be holy and happy in his sins. We 



OF UNIVERSALIS*!, 38 

believe holiness is essential to happiness, as much as the 
gentleman does. Here then we do not differ. 

But he believes that man's immortal existence in a state 
of holiness and happiness, is predicated on this contingen- 
cy, — faith and good works in this world, Well if he be- 
lieves this, he denies his creed and contradicts himself. 
But he says he charges upon me the belief that man's fu- 
ture destiny does not depend upon faith and good works in 
this life. Well this is Bible doctrine, and we could show 
it, but it would be wandering from the point — this is not the 
question in debate. I say the Bible doctrine is, that eternal 
salvation is no where predicated on man's faith and works 
in this iife; it does not rest on such a contingency. It rests 
on God's unbounded grace and mercy. But it is not a fact 
that we make no change necessary. There is a change 
made in the resurrection, a change which redeems this 
sinful poluted earthy being and makes him equal to the an- 
gels. Now, this is the gift of God and we will give scrip- 
ture proof of it — for we have been challenged to give it. 
This, however, I repeat is not the question. Our condi- 
tion in the future world has nothing to do with the way 
of getting there. 

You remember perhaps what the old Dutchman said, 
when he carried his wheat to Albany — that they never 
asked what road he came, but whether his wheat was 
good. So will it be in heaven, we never shall be asked 
what way we came, or how the change in us was effected, 
but are you holy? Have you the moral image of Chirst 
and God, If you possess this character enter into your 
inheritance — incorruptible and that fadeth not away. 
Now, this change is dependent alone on the purpose of 
God. It is God's purpose that all should be raised up to 
an immortal and glorious inheritance. This does not de- 
pend on man but on God. And my friends we can do 
just as much towards solving the question, how we shall 
be changed, as we can towards solving what shall be 
our condition in the resurrection. When a man dies it is 
for God to say whether he shall live again — he can do 
nothing to effect his own resurrection. 

This depends on the will of Jehova alone, and the mode 

3* 



84 A DISCUSSION 

and condition of his existence depends on God alone — not 
on faith at all. And yet faith and good wo-rks are impor- 
tant to man's peace and happiness in this world. I at- 
tach much importance to these and so does the Bible. But 
as regards eternal lite. What were our Savior's views on 
this subject? Who will claim to be purer or more worthy 
than his disciples, — and does Christ promise them immor- 
tal life, for their good works here? When ye have done 
all, says He, "say ye are unprofitable servants." Could 
the disci pies claim any thing on the score of good works. 
My friends as it respects good works from the best of us, 
let us do all we can, when we die we shall find that we are 
under everlasting obligation of gratitude to God for past 
mercies and blessings, — we shall have nothing to constitute 
a claim to eternal lite. 

Now to establish my position, that salvation does not 
depend on faith and good works, 1 adduce the proof, 2. 
Timothy i. 9, 10, "Who hath saved us, and called us 
with a holy calling, not according to our works [mark] but 
according to his own purpose and grace which was 
given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, but is 
now made manifest by the appearing of our Savior Je- 
sus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought 
life and immortality to light through the gospel." You 
see here no chance of boasting on account of works. If 
further proof is wanted, we will give it, that in the mouth of 
two or three witnesses every word may may be establish- 
ed. Rom. vi. 23, "For the wages of sin is death, but the 
gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." 
For further confirmation, Rom. v. 15, "But not as the 
offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence 
of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and 
the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath 
abounded unto many," What language can be plainer, 
that salvation is the gift of God alone? This free gift is 
also a universal gift, to be enjoyed by every son and 
daughter of Adam. It comes on all men. What more 
can we ask than this, I ask nothing more to settle my ho- 
liness and happiness eternally. And what do we find 
here to merit or claim this free gift. "Where sin aboun- 



a 



OF UNIVERSALIS*!. 35 

ed, grace did much more abound." As extensive as the 
malady, so extensive is the panacea, restoring to perfect 
soundness and health. This free gift I expect means salva- 
tion to all intents and purposes. Paul settles this in the 18th 
verse. "Therefore as by the offence of one judgment 
came upon all men to condemnation; even so (no limit at 
all) by the righteousness of one, the free gift came upon? 
all men unto justification of life." [Time expired. 

[mr. power's fourth reply.] 

Gentlemen Judges: As the audience have been together 
a long time this afternoon, I will occupy but a short space. 
I will just glance at the gentleman's positions as he made 
them. 

Respecting his remarks on the first Adam in opposition to 
the hereditary depravity of our nature, I shall make but a 
passing remark, and that merely to correct an error in re- 
gard to sentiments attributed to me, viz: that if a man 
should be a fiddler in this world, he would likewise be a fid- 
dler in the future world. 1 would say that if any adult 
persons of our race, should indulge in any such business 
in this life and die in their sins, they would have no oppor- 
tunity for fiddling in the future world. We shall notice 
this again by and by. 

Again: He remarked that the resurrection affected the 
condition of the soul as well as the body. This I deny, and 
call on him for the proof to show where Paul affirms that 
the resurrection of the body effects a moral change on the 
soul. 

I will here take the opportunity to lift the vail and show 
that the system that 1 oppose, holds, in opposition to all 
christain denominations, that the soul dies as well as the 
body and rests in the grave. [Here Mr. Doolittle denied 
that he held such a doctrine.] Well I am glad to learn that 
this is not the gentleman's belief. And I will now ask him 
where it is taught in any form, that the soul is sown in 
weakness and raised power, &c. Where is the text that 
teaches the resurrection of the moral character of any 
m&n, any different from what he possessed on earth? Mi\ 



36 A DISCUSSION 

D. remarked that we held that a man's immortality, holi- 
ness and happiness, &c. depends on his faith and good 
works in this life. But this not so. He here blended sev- 
eral points. We do not hold that a man's immortality has 
any thing to do with his obedience or disobedience in this 
life. But we maintain that man's holiness and happiness 
in a future world are suspended on his faith and obedience 
in this world. 

With reference to his illustration of the wheat carried 
into market, — he mistook the case entirely. He began at 
the wrong end of the journey. If a man hears that wheat 
is a dollar a bushel in N, Y., the question is, "how shall I 
get my wheat there?" This is often a very important 
question with him. There is a heaven. But how can I 
get there? is the great inquiry. Does God require any 
thing at my hand in order that I may get there? 

It is evident that the gentleman had a waving speech 
when on the floor. In reference to his quotation from Ro- 
man's — he spent all his strength in proving what we nev- 
er denied. We do not believe thai man could do any 
thing by which to merit heaven. But the question is, does 
God demand any thing of man that he may avail himself 
of the joys of heaven? God gives the husbandman his 
harvest — it is as much a free gift as salvation is — but does 
he expect to reap without using any means whatever to 
procure it! The man that would sit down and fold his 
arms, andjyet expect that God would give him an abundant 
harvest would be considered a fit subject of a lunatic asylum. 
But such a man would be a philospher in comparison to 
the man who should sit down and not ask what God would 
have him do that he might reap the rich harvest of eter- 
nal life — a life of blessedness in a future world. 

It will be understood then that while we never main- 
tained that man merits future happiness in heaven by his 
faith and obedience here. The system I oppose maintains 
the contrary, and here is the issue. 

For proof of our position, I cite Matth. v. 11, 12, 
"Blessed are ye when men shall revile you, and persecute 
you andshairsayall manner of evil against you falsely for 
my sake. Rejoice and be exceeding glad, for great is your 



OF UNIVERSALIS!*!. 37 

reward in heaven" They had great reward in heaven, 
but this was no more the reward of merit than an abun- 
dant harvest is the reward of merit to the husbandman. 
The reward is all of grace. A man cannot claim a tem- 
poral blessing at the hand of his Maker, Still he has 
blessings by fulflling certain conditions. So God requires 
us to sow the spiritual seed, and if we do this we shall' 
reap a spiritual harvest. 

Again: He commented with some interest on Rom. v. 
18. Now our view of this text is perfectly clear, on the 
old Bible platform, not on the new constitutitional Adam 
and Christ, but the real Adam and Christ, the moral repre- 
sentatives of our race. 

Adam fell and being the representative of man, the whole 
race became involved in guilt. u By the offence of one 
(Adam) judgment came upon all men to condemnation. 
So by the righteousness of one (Christ) the free gift came 
upon all men unto justification of life* 5 * As natural and 
spiritual death came through Adam, so the resurrection 
for all, and spiritual life unconditionally for infants, come 
through Jesus Christ; and spiritual life to all adults who 
will receive it by faith. 

Before I close f would remind the audience, that the 
gentlemen in his last speech, did not attempt to touch the 
difficulty I placed against his argument on the 15th of 1st 
Cor. that making Adam a constitutional nature, makes 
Christ an idealbeing. He passed this without a solitary 
remark. And 1 tell you he will never meet this diffi- 
culty and remove it out of the way. He will have to re- 
tract his position or acknowledge that Christ is not a re- 
al person 

I now close by stating, the issue in the morning will be 
whether man's future condi* ion depends at ail on faith and 
obedience in this life. If I cannot show from the scripture 
that there is this dependence, I will give up the ground. 



38 A DISCUSSION 



Wednesday, July 30 — 9 o'clock, A. M. - 



[mr. dooltttle's fifth sprech.] 

As the hour has arrived for the discussion to commence 
fhis morning, for the information of those who were not 
here yesterday, it may be proper to read the question, and 
also briefly to refer to the course we have pursued thus 
far. 

The question is, "Do the Scriptures of the Old and New 
Testament, teach the ultimate holiness and happiness of 
the entire human race, in a state of immortality." 

You will perceive the question has nothing to do with 
the state or condition of man in this world. No reference 
to, whether man is an accountable being, or a subject of 
moral government in the present life. This question trav- 
els beyond this life, and relates to the condition of man 
in the immortal state. What do the Scriptures teach con- 
cerning man's immortal condition beyond the grave. Hence 
all the questions affecting man's condition in this life have 
nothing to do with the question before us. And I very 
much regret, that thus far my friend has sustained the 
character as a debater, that I had heard attributed J to him 
before, i. e. that he is very prone to avoid the question un- 
der debate — that his main skill lies in directing the at- 
tention from the point and drawing off his opponent from 
the proper question, to something else, foreign from the 
point. The gentleman I regret to say, has tried to pur-" 
sue this course thus far in this discussion. And to justify 
himself in his course, he calls our attention to a remark 
connected with these questions, viz.— "The above ques- 
tions open the entire system of Universalism and Ortho- 
doxy, for free and full discussion." You will remark that 
Elder Power penned this as his opinion. But we are not 
bound to endorse his opinion. We claim the right to ex- 
ercise or own reason and judgment in this matter. And 



OF UNIVERSALIS!*!. 39 

we say there is no man of good judgment and common 
sense that would put the construction" that he has put on 
it. Do these questions open the field for the discussion of 
every thing and any thing? By no means. We have con- 
vened for the discussion of certain questions, and what 
are they? Do they embrace Total Depravity, Vicarious 
Atonement, the Trinity, &c, &c. By no means. If after 
we get through the discussion of the questions before us, 
we choose to take up other subjects, we can do it, but while 
we have these questions before us let us attend to them. 

The question before us you see relates to man's weal 
or wo in the immortal state of existence, and has nothing 
at all to do with his condition in this world. Our friend 
yesterday undertook to draw off our attention from jthis, 
and open the whole field of theology for debate. And the 
only reason I can assign for this course is, his strong con- 
viction that he is unable to grapple with the arguments 
which we brought forward. For they were founded on 
a rock against which the tempests of error may beat in 
vain. The truth cannot be shaken. If 1 had his ground 
I might perhaps have taken the same course. This is the 
only course one can pursue under such circumstances, to 
make any show of an argument. But it is calculated to 
lead us far from the main point of the question. 

Now I appeal to the Moderators' on this question. We 
have chosen you to observe the rules by which we are to 
be governed and see them enforced. You are not to de- 
cide on the arguments, but decide questions of order, and 
keep us to the rules which we have drawn up. This you 
perceive is your duty, I do not remind you of this be- 
cause you are not aware of it, but to have the matter pre- 
sented in a correct light to the audience. 

[Here the rules were read which see.] 

I shall expect gentlemen if our friend here manifests a 
disposition to wander from the point as he did yesterday, 
you will see that he is called back. He seemed to loose 
sight of the fact that 1 had the affirmative and that I was 
to lead. 

Now to the question, my business is to sustain the af- 
firmative from the Scriptures, — my friends business is to 



40 A DISCUSSION 






examine my arguments and either admit their force, or 
prove them false. His business is to follow me, and not 
attempt to draw my attention off from the subject. 

Yesterday my first argument was founded on the resur- 
rection, the universality of the resurrection of all men to an 
immortal state of existence, — a state of holiness and hap- 
piness. This I proved from 1st Cor. 15, Paul there de- 
monstrates the fact of the resurrection, "As in Adam 
all die even so in Christ shall all be made alive. ** My 
argument was that by the term Adam we are to under- 
stand what it means, the earthy man, — the earthly consti- 
tution of our race. All die in this earthy constitution or 
Adamic nature. And as they all die in this manner, so are 
all to be made alive in Christ, the heavenly image, — made 
alive from the two fold death in the Adamic nature. For 
I showed that this was a two fold death ; 1st we die phy- 
sically, and 2nd., we die a moral or spiritual death. By 
being made alive in Christ, we are made free from all the 
consequences of this two fold death, which we die in Adam. 
As Paul says, " h is sown in corruption, it is raised in in- 
corruption." But our friend tells us, this is only a resur- 
rection of the body. But we say, it redeems the soul and 
body both from all corruption. The Apostle in telling us 
of this change, plainly tells us of the results of this change: 
"When this corruptible shall have put on incorruption and 
this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be 
brought to pass the saying that is written, death is swal- 
lowed up in victory! O death, where is thy sting? O 
grave, where is thy victory V But to show us farther 
that this is a moral as well as physical change, the Apostle 
adds: "The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin 
is the law." "But thanks be to God, which giveth us the 
victory " Victory over what ? Over all sin and every 
foe. To show farther that this change is both moral and 
physical,, let us turn to the 8th of Rom. 21st verse, where 
Paul is refering to the same event : " Because the creature 
itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corrup- 
tion, into the glorious liberty of the children of God." 
Mark, this deliverance is from the bondage of corruption, 
into the glorious liberty of the children of God! This 



ON UNIVERSALIS!*!. 41 

accords with what Jesus Christ says, when they came to 
him to enquire of him about the resurrection : "But they 
which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and 
the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are 
given in marriage. Neither can they die any more, for 
they are equal unto the Angels, [are the Angels impure ?] 
and are the children of God, being children of the resur- 
rection. This is the language cf the Savior, so you see 
we have proved clearly and definitely that the resurrec- 
tion of the dead is both a moral and physical change. 
Physically, like Christ's glorious body — and spiritually 
like his image, the glory of God the Father. Thus as 
far as language can make a thing plain, we have proved 
this position, that the Scriptures do teach the ultimate ho- 
liness and happiness of the entire human race in a state of 
immortality I called on my friend to take hold of this 
chain and see if he could break it. Well he took it on 
his anvil, but what did he do. He said he found it to have 
one crooked link. But that he could not break. And he 
was mistaken about its having one crooked link. 1 am 
confident that he rests under the firm conviction, that he 
can no more move this argument, than he can shake the 
pillars of the universe. Hence his whole force and skill 
were employed to draw us from the question. He tried 
to lead us into the discussion of total depravity, or some- 
thing else of a kindred nature. Every thing in the lati- 
tude of the question which he attempted to bring as an off- 
sett to this argument, was this simple passage from John 
v. 28, 29, — and 1 was surprised that he should bring it up 
here as it belongs to the other question, "Marvel not at this, 
for the hour is coming in the which all that are in the 
graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth, they that 
have done good to the resurrection of life, and they that 
have done evil to the resurrection of damnation." ! ! This 
has no reference at all to what Paul is speaking of in Cor, 
Christ was speaking of a moral and spiritual resurrection, 
that was to take place in the preaching of the Gospel. 
He tells us, the hour is coming, and now is, when all he is 
here speaking of, was to take place. But admitting that 

4 



42 A DISCUSSION 

the text has reference to man's immortal existence, (which 
ldeny,) it proves too much for the gentleman ; for his logic 
is, that which proves too much, proves nothing at all. 
Now, for the sake of the argument, I will admit he is cor- 
rect. Well does it say, " they that have done good shall 
come forth to the resurrection of life." Now where will 
you find a man that has never done some good, at least 
one good act ? Here it is promised, that they that have 
done good shall come forth to the resurrection of life. All 
have done some good ; therefore, all shall come forth to 
the resurrection of life. "And they that have done evil, 
to the resurrection of damuation." All have done evil, so 
all shall come forth to the resurrection of damnation. 
Here then you have two resurrections, one of all to life, 
the other of all to damnation. But this is not the only 
difficulty in the way of my friends exposition of the text. 
Here is a portion of the human family, idiots and infants, 
that are incapable of doing either good or evil. They 
will be excluded from either of the two resurrections. 
What will be done with them I know not; probably my 
friend will place them in a state of betweenity. I leave 
him to solve this difficulty. The text has no reference to 
a physical resurrection in the future, but to what was 
taking place at that time, a moral and spiritual resurrec- 
tion — from the moral degradation they were then in. They 
were like the dry bones spoken of by the Prophet, that 
should rise. Christ told the Pharisees they were as graves, 
like whited sepulchers. Such figures were common, and 
this passage is to be understood in the same sense. 

[Time expired. 

[mr. power's fifth reply.] 

Gentlemen Moderators, and the Audience — I will spend 
a few moments in the first place, in examining Mr. D.'s 
comment on, and exposition of the questions and rules. 
He has announced to you, that the questions have reference 
exclusively to man's future condition, and do not by any 
possibility involve his condition in this state of being. — 
And then he charges, very modestly, (and I take it ail in 






ON TTNIVERSALISM. 43 

good part,) that we must be a little destitute of common 
sense, to put the construction which we did on the postscript 
to the questions. This may require a little explanation. 

With less acquaintance with the system than I have, I 
might have been a little surprised. But with the know- 
ledge I possess of its character, of its manner of defence, 
or rather of retreat, and of the fact that its strong hold is 
in keeping its true character concealed from the public,— 
and learning that Mr. D. was an able defender of the sys- 
tem, (which character I fear he may tarnish thi3 morning,) 
and knowing his principal defence to be in concealing the 
true system from the public eye, I therefore penned the 
P. S., that I might bring out the whole system. And be- 
fore we engaged in this discussion, he signed this with his 
eyes open. So all h s remarks about it are uncalled for. 

The questions allow me, as the opponent of Universa- 
lism, to bring out all its strong points before this commu- 
nity. And they give him the same opportunity with my 
system. Now we hope that this explanation will save our 
worthy friend from any farther reference to these points. 

I remark, secondly, with reference to his lesson of in- 
struction to the honorable Judges, that the rules do not de- 
volve it on them to make questions of order— this belongs 
to the disputants,— but to decide such questions as are re- 
ferred to them. 

It belongs to the negative to raise all the objections that 
can be raised, and to the affirmative to clear them up if 
possible. What have I been invited here for 1 To cover 
up Universalism, and hide its deformity! Would I have 
travelled some 40i* miles, first and last, ^for I made a fruit- 
less journey here last spring for this purpose,) merely to 
cover up this corrupt system, and let it announce a com- 
plete victory? No. I understand I am invited here to 
take hold of the very foundations of this system, and, if 
I can, raze the lowest stone of its superstructure, and show 
that it is wholly unsustained by the Bibie. We expected 
to meet this morning and take hold of the system as it is, 
not to put in a plea to release it from all connection with 
this world I presume the audience was disappointed to 
hear Mr. D. put in a suppliant plea for his system, instead 



44 A DISCUSSION 

of a strong argument to sustain it. He should not be too 
uneasy about his system so soon, for if I am not mistaken, 
this is but the beginning of its calamities. He stands here 
before you and says I have not attended to his argument, 
that I have passed by them all. Now I challenge him to 
put his finger on a passage of Scripture, or an argument, 
which I have not examined. This whole community is 
witness, that I have examined every argument that he has 
adduced. But this is only another feature of the system 
I oppose — to get out of the hands of its opponent. 

My friend has informed those who were not present be- 
fore, what the question is, and the progress of the argu- 
ments thus far — that he had staked his affirmative on the 
general resurrection — that his first proof was found in the 
15th of 1 Cor. — and he quoted from Rom. and other parts 
of the Scriptures, for proof corroborative of this. The 
audience who were present yesterday, will recollect how 
I treated this argument. But to stir up your minds by 
way of remembrance, and for the benefit of those who 
were not present yesterday, I will glance at it again. 

He quoted, "As in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall 
all be made alive." — "This mortal shall put on immortali- 
ty." I wish you to mark this inspired declaration— this 
mortal must put on immortality. You recollect we join- 
ed issue on the main proof on which he staked his position. 
And this is the strongest ground he has, I stated that his 
application of this portion of Scripture, annihilated Christ 
from the world. He says Adam does not mean an indivi- 
dual — the man that sinned in the garden ; but a natural 
human constitution, or earthy nature of every man. We 
showed, that in his application of this, he had to violate a 
universally acknowledged rule of interpretation, viz: that 
if one part of a text is to be understood figuratively, the 
other part of the same text is to be understood figuratively 
likewise. If Adam is a figurative, not a real man, but a 
mere earthly constitution; then Christ cannot be a real 
person, but a spiritual constitution belonging to man. So 
Christ as the great Redeemer and Savior of mankind, is 
banished from the world ! I called upon him to meet this 
difficulty, but he did not touch it. And I lay this down as 



ON UNIVERSALIS!*!. 45 

an irrefutable answer, and am perfectly willing to leave it 
to the decision of this audience. And if he cannot get other 
proof than this contained in this chapter, he must give up 
the case. At least, to avail himself of any proof here, 
he must recant his position, (and I have so much of the 
milk of kindness about me, 1 willgive him perfect liberty 
to do it,) and take the ground that Adam means the literal 
Adam, and Christ means the literal Christ. If he does 
not do this, he must say that we are not saved by a lite- 
ral Christ, but by some element in our own constitution. 

But this is not the only difficulty. I showed that this 
resurrection only referred to the body. I asked him to 
show us where the Bible said the soul was sown in weak- 
ness and raised in power, &c. But he saw fit to pass this 
point without notice. But if he does come to it, he will 
plunge his system into a difficulty, from which it cannot 
be extricated. 

Mark, this resurrection refers to the body alone, or to 
the body and soul loth. If he says it refers to the body 
alone, he yields his point, and his system goes with it. But 
as this is the most plausible ground he has to stand on, he 
will, to save his system, make it include the soul. Then 
his system, as I intimated before, holds to the mortality of 
the soul. But Mr. D. said this was not his belief. Well, 
he may take it back if he chooses. But he must, if he 
holds to his argument, hold that the soul is mortal ; for it 
is to put on immortality. But how could the soul put on 
immortality if it always had it on, and never was mortal 1 
So you see plainly, if he would have his main proof text 
avail him anything, he must take the ground that the soul 
is mortal as well as the body. 

A few words in reference to his remarks on John v. 28, 
29. The gentleman I suppose was innocent, but he mis- 
quoted the text; he added, and now is, which clause does 
not belong to this text, and he can never get it into the text. 
The Savior is evidently discoursing about the moral con- 
dition of men in the verses preceding, as will be seen by 
commencing to read at the 20th verse; he says, verse 25 : 
" the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear 
the voice of the Son of God"-— i. e. they shall believe on 

4* 



46 A DISCUSSION 

the son of God — "and they that hear [believe] shall live." 
And as some were greatly astonished that Christ should 
possess such power and authority, he adds--" Marvel not 
at this: for the hour is coming [not now is] in the which 
all that are in their graves shall hear his voice, and shall 
come forth, they that have done good unto the resurrec- 
tion of life> and they that have done evil to the resurrec- 
tion of damnation" — showing, that he had not only power 
to raise them from spiritual death in this world, but also 
to raise their bodies from the grave at the last day, and 
assign every one his place according to his works, and 
moral character. 

My friend started the difficulty— that all had done some 
good, and some evil; and, therefore, there would be a 
double resurrection. But the difficulty here lies in his 
view of the subject, of what constitutes doing good or evil. 
What is here meant by doing good is, believing on the Son 
of God, and obeying him ; by doing which, they become 
subjects of a spiritual resurrection, and heirs to a crown 
of life at the last day. Doing evil, in the text means, to 
reject Christ ; and such as do this, are condemned to eter- 
nal punishment in the future world. 

In the case of idiots and infants, I will remove the ob- 
jection. And he need not fear I shall use up my affirma- 
tive, though to remove this objection, I refer to Rev. xx. 
12, "And I saw the dead small and great stand before God."' 
Here you see the small, or infants, are raised ! Now will 
the gentleman say I have avoided his main point in proof 
of his affirmative? — [Time exjrired. 

[mr. doolittle's sixth speech.] 

While the matter is fresh in my mind, I will turn to 
the passage in John again. I am accused of misquoting 
language in the text. 1 did not quote it as in the text 
but in the context. 

I will turn your attention to it once more, to show you 
that my friend is laboring under a serious mistake, you 
will perceive from the context, that Christ was speaking 
of the moral effects that were resulting from the preach- 



on universalism; 47 

log of the gospel, — of a resurrection effected by the pow- 
er of the word at that time, in that generation, and has no 
reference to the immortal condition of man in a future 
world. Says Christ, "verily, verily, 1 say unto you, the 
hour is coming [will continue to come] and now is, when 
the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God, and they 
that hear shall live." Now, does Christ here mean the 
literal dead or the spiritually? Without any doubt the 
latter; for he says, the time is coming and now is, when 
they that hear the gospel shall live and receive it, shall 
be purified and live in a moral sense. "For as the Fath- 
er hath life in himself, so hath he given the Son to have 
life in himself, and hath given him authority to execute 
judgment also, because he is the Son of man." 

Then the Savior to speak more definitely and extensive- 
ly still, relatively to this change, says "Marvel not at this 
for the hour is coming in the which all that are in the 
graves shall hear his voice." Having reference to their 
moral condition. This is plainly the meaning, as will be 
seen by reference to other passages. Christ compared 
the Pharisees, on account of their sins and hypocrisy, to 
graves, — whited sepulchers. "So the Prophet Ezekiel us- 
es the same language, the Savior here uses in reference to 
the moral state of the Jews, when he refers to the valley 
of dry bones. I will read two or three verses. "Then 
he said unto me, son of man, these bones are the whole 
house of Isreal, behold they say our bones are dried and 
our hope is lost, we are cut off from our parts. Therefore 
prophesy and say unto them, thussaith the Lord God, be- 
hold O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you 
to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the 
land of Israel. And ye shall know that I am the Lord, 
when I have opened your graves O my people, and brought 
you up out of your graves. And shall put my spirit in 
you, and ye shall live; and I shall place you in your own 
land; then shall ye know that I Lord have spoken it, and 
performed it, saith the Lord," Ezek.xxxvn.il — 14 vs. 
Here no one can doubt that this refers to a moral state, — 
that the Jews were in their graves of sin, buried in sin. 

Will they never be raised from their graves. Now the 



48 A DISCUSSION 

Savior has reference to the same thing, to being buried itl 
sin when he uses the figure of the grave, Some had been 
waiting for the Messiah, and when he came, they believed 
on him and were raised out of this state of moral slumber 
and death. 

There were others that came forth to the resurrection 
of damnation, i. e. they became his murderers, they cru- 
cified him. This is what is meant by coming forth to the 
resurrection of damnation. And this is so understood by 
some of the best commentators in our land. It has no re* 
ference whatever to an immortal state. 

The gentleman says he was invited here to take hold of 
the very foundation of our system— not to take hold of 
any one point and be confined to it, but seize on every 
thing connected with universalism, to grapple with the 
whole system. I am glad he feels this responsibility* 
resting on him, and hope he will take hold like a man. I 
have no fear of the consequence. But as to the main pil- 
lars, he has not yet taken hold on them, — neither will he 
lay his hand on them. He might as well lay hold on the 
pillars of the universe. They are as firm as the eternal 
throne. 

These pillars are the existence of one God — the per- 
fection of all his attributes — faith in Jesus Christ, as the 
Savior of the world — that he will fully accomplish his 
mission — that all men will attain happiness and holiness, 
in a state of immortality. Now if he has come to grap- 
ple on these main pillars, why does he not take hold on 
them. Why does he not take hold on our views of the 
character of God, of his revealed will to man — these 
main pillars and show that our doctrine is false — that the 
doctrine of the holiness and happiness of the entire human 
race is at war with the character of God — at war with 
the character of Jesus Christ and with the object of his 
mission to earth — at war with the Bible — with the best 
wishes of mankind. — Why does he not take hold of these 
pillars? He will never do it. 

But he has manifested considerable sympathy for me, 
and tried to excite your compassion in my favor,— stating 
that I made a very suppliant speech— that 1 wanted to beg 



ON UNIVERSALIS?!. 49 

off — that I was afraid to present the whole system — -almost 
ready to beg and intreat, that he would not go into a gen- 
eral investigation, — that I was afraid he would make 
known some of its dangerous points. This is all for effect. 
As far as any fear is concerned, I should be glad to stand 
here for six months, and discuss the whole ground of Uni- 
versalism and Methodism. I have no fears as to the re- 
sult. VV e are the last people in the world, that would 
smother free discussion. The great difficulty, is free dis- 
cussion, has been avoided by the opposite side. And no 
one would have come into the field, to oppose our system, 
unless their friend's had driven them to it, by telling them 
that our doctrine, was gaining great reputation and rapidly 
spreading, that their faith was in danger, and they must 
enter the field, and try to show that Universalism is false, 
or the whole world would embrace it. Public opinion has 
driven them to this, and I am glad it is so. I want to keep 
nothing in the dark. I want our whole system brought 
out to view, that all may see it, and embrace the truth. 

The Gentleman challenged me, to lay my finger on any 
point of the argument, he has not examined. 1 ask if he 
has taken hold, on any part of my argument, as a man 
should take hold of it, and shown that it does not prove 
the holiness and happiness, of the entire human race, in a 
state of immortality? I challenged him to lay hold of this 
chain of testimony and show that all men, who are raised 
in glory, in powerand in incorruption, will not be happy. 

44 1 will," says he »* lay this chain on my anvil, and see 
if it can be broken. " Well he laid it there, and found 
he says one crooked link, but even that he could not brake. 
And he was mistaken, about the crooked link, it was only 
a defect in his perception. The whole chain is sound and 
cannot be broken. 

Adam, he finds fault with my definition of the term Adam. 
But 1 gave the Bible, and the correct definition of term. 
Nearly all proper names in the Bible, have some signifi- 
cation peculiar to themselves. So the term Adam means 
Earthy, Red, Redman or man of the Earth. Now why 
was the first man called Adam, earthy maul Because he 
was made of the Earth. 



50 A DISCUSSION 

Again, I said, the first man. clothed in this earthly con- 
stitution, stood as the representative of the human race. 
He sinned and became subject to temporal and spiritual 
death. To natural death, by a law of physical nature, 
and to spiritual death, in consequence of the violation of 
the mo£al law. So he died a two-fold death. You will 
mark the scripture, "as in Adam all die," — in the present 
tense, not in the past tense. Not "In Adam's fall we sinned 
all" — -all die, not died, — because all sin in the Adamic or 
earthly nature. 

Adam is the representative of man in his earthy nature, 
and Christ is the representative of man in his spiritual or 
heavenly nature.-- -Hence, says the Apostle : " As we have 
have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the 
image of the heavenly." "As in Adam all die, 
even so in Christ shall be made alive." " Behold I shew 
you a mystery, we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be 
changed." Now the question is— What shall be the con- 
dition of all men when thus changed ? Our friend says 
this is to be a physical change, affecting the body only. 
But does Paul say so ? By no means. Now mark his 
language, and see what shall be the result of this univer- 
sal change. s " When this mortal shall have put on immor- 
tality." Then comsth the end when Christ shall have 
completed the object of his mission. For he must reign, 
till he hath put all enemies under his feet. "The last 
enemy that shall be detroyed is death— then shall be 
brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swal- 
lowed up in victory. O Dsath, where is thy sting ? O 
Grave, where is thy victory ?" To show that this change 
is both moral as well as physical, he adds : "The sting of 
death is sin." But all will exclaim, O death where is thy 
sting. The sting (sin) is no longer to be felt, it is taken 
away, and there is a complete victory over every foe. And 
all shout, " Thanks be to God, who giveth us the victory, 
through our Lord Jesus Christ." All are raised in honor, 
in glory, in power, and are as the Savior says, " Equal to 
the Angels." And yet our friend says, many of them will 
be like devils, and not like angels. He says, all who die 
sinners will be raised up sinners ; but the Savior says, 






ON TJNIVERSALISM. 51 

they will be " equal unto the angels." Who shall we be- 
lieve, Eider Power, or Christ? 

I said I did not believe in the mortality of the soul. But 
this I do believe : that the resurrection of the whole man 
as spoken of here, is a full salvation ; which moulds man 
into the image of Christ, and renders him pure and holy, 
a lit subject for the society of heaven.— [Time expired* 

[mr. power's sixth reply.] 

Gentlemen Moderators, and the Audience^-ln looking 
over the ground occupied by my worthy friend Mr. D., 
you cannot but have perceived the perfectly unsuccessful 
attempt he made, to meet my counter proof. I referred to 
the resurrection mentioned in John. To prove his point* 
he referred to Ezk. Now the passage in Ezk. is wholly 
confined to the house of Israel, while in John, the terms 
have not the least restriction, but have reference to the 
whole human family. Again : in the prophesy of Ezk. 
the Lord tells the prophet, this is nDt a literal resurrec- 
tion, but has reference to their political state; while in John, 
the Redeemer refers to the Divine wlI towards men — that 
God will raise them ; and the moral character they pos- 
sess when raised, will fix their destiny for eternity. Again, 
any argument, which involves a contradiction in itself, 
is unsound ; and this is the case win the gentleman's. 
He says this is a figurative resurrection. Now mark what 
follows from this interpretation: "The bour is coming in the 
which all that are in the gaves [in a state of moral corrup- 
tion] shall come forth ; [[from their corruption,] they that 
have done good, [in this corruption] to the resurrection of 
life, and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of 
damnation" — i. e. they that have done evil, are in corrup- 
tion, and shall be raised out of corruption, into a state of 
condemnation or corruption again, in tiis life, just as they 
were before. This is an absurdity too gross to be tolera- 
ted a moment. 

He then made an effort which was equally unsuccessful, 
to save his leading argument on the general resurrection, 
This we will give a passing notice. He was almost tempt- 



hi A DJSCUSMON 

ed to change his position. He says, Adam was the repre- 
sentative of the whole human race. Now I noted down 
his remark in his first speech, on this subject ; which was, 
that Adam did not. mean a literal man, hut .only the consti- 
tutional earthy nature of all men. The ladder was too 
short for his difficulty. Jle knew it would not do to take 
his old ground exactly, so ho says Adam was a literal man, 
the representative of the human race. 

Now we will follow up this point. And we will see yet, 
that in order to save his argument, he has to annihilate; 
Christ. Now that system that involves an absurdity, and 
contradicts the whole Scriptures must he i'also. But his 
theory contradicts the whole word of God. .lie would 
have us infer that there is a kind of constitution laid up 
in heaven somewhere, that is to save its all ; hut whatever 
it may te, it is not the literal Christ. And the Hihlosays, 
*' there is no other name under heaven whereby men 
can he saved." Jlenee you sec. the gentleman must come 
to the rescue of his avgument; for it is prostrated, or leave 
the whole world without hope in Christ. 

JJo made a labored ell'ort, but fell short of what I had 
.anticipated, to show tjiat his respondent and Paul were at 
issue. His effort wan wholly unsuccessful. My position 
was, if he applied the resurrection spoken of in 1 Cor., 15$ 
to the body alone, his argument -.would fail. So he has to 
apply it to the body and soul both. But did lie show thai 
and I were at issue ? Verily he did not. 

And now I bring Jtim again to the point 1 have had up 
before. He must s!|ow, if the soul puts on immortality, 
that it did not posscsfe it before, or that it now has a double 
immortality. Hut (his is a doctrine the Uihle knows no- 
thing of. Well he uis fully conceded the point to us, (and 
1 was glad to hcar;him,) to take hold of the pillars of Utri- 
versalism, and .brii g out its strong points. And as it 
affords him so much pleasure to think I am ready to do it, 
i hope you will not be detained again with the complaint, 
that I am departing from the point. 

lie says we believa in the one Supreme Cod, and in J< 
Christ, as declared ill the Bible, to be the Saviour of the 
world, ile claims this to be a peculiarity of Univorsalism ! 






0*F UNIVERSALIS!*, 53 

But this is not the fact, by any means. This is not the issue, 
I am not coming before you, to prove there is no Jehovah, 
or Savior of the world ! But here lies the issue, at tho 
very bottom and foundation of the whole superstructure, 
viz; the system maintains that God is such a Being, that 
lie has released man from all responsibility of faith, leve, 
obedience, or holiness in this world — and that man, will as 
certainly be saved in Heaven, by rejecting Christ the Sa- 
vior of the world, as if he should believe on him with all 
his heart. 

Another peculiar feature of the system is— and mark, it 
is the foundation stone — take this away and the whole 
building falls to the ground — take it away and Universal- 
ism vanishes as a vaper ; it is the very soul of the system to 
maintain, and all who hold this theory, if thev are consis- 
tent with their system, maintain and teach, that men may 
disbelieve in the one Supreme God, and Jesus Christ whom 
He has sent — may blaspheme his infinite and holy name — 
throw off all moral restraint, and yet be unconditionally 
sure of heaven and eternal happiness. This is the pillar 
I am feeling after, and 1 hope to force it from its founda- 
tion, and let the whole temple fall into its merited ruin. 

Mr. D. refers again to my art as a blacksmith. I would 
not allude to this further, if it w r ere not for his frequent 
use of it. He said I did not break his chain. 1 perceive 
my friend D. has very 1 tile knowledge of this art, and I 
think I shall shew you, that he has less skill as a theolo- 
gian. I have takeu the hammer of truth, and applied it to 
his chain, and you see it will take the gentleman an age to 
gather up the fragments. And 1 will work up his theologi- 
cal chains just as fast as he can bring them on. 1 will do 
it by the day, or by the job. Bring on your metal, Mr. D., 
as fast as you please. 

But to the argument. Friend I)., you remember, re- 
joiced that we were coming to take hold of the pillars of 
this system ; and as it is a matter of rejoicing to him, we 
the more cheerfully set about it. 

We have shown that to believe in God, as theSovereign 
of the Universe, and Jesus Christ as the Savior of the 
world, is not a peculiarity of Universalism. Its peculiari- 

5 



54 A DISCUSSION 

ty consists in teaching that men may "reject all the truths 
of the Bible, disregard every moral obligation, violate 
every moral principle that is revealed in the Bible, a*nd 
die in moral degredation and sin ; and yet, they are as sure 
of heaven as if tbey were already in its enjoyment. 

The foundation of Universalism is, in maintaining that 
God releases man in this world from all obligation, as a 
condition or means of salvation in heaven. Now I will 
show that this contradicts the word of God, and must be 
false; for the Word of God will not contradict itself. To 
show that the Bible does require faith in man in this world, 
as a condition or means of his salvation hereafter, I quote 
Johniii. 14 — 18: M And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the 
wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up, ; That 
whosoever belie veth in him should not perish, but have 
eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave 
his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him, 
should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent 
not his Son into the world to condemn the world, but that 
the world through him might be saved. He that believeth 
on him, is not condemned : but he that believeth not, is con- 
demned already, because he hath not believed in the name 
of the only begotten Son of God." Again, the 36th verse: 
" He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and 
he that believeth not the Son, shall not see life ; but the 
wrath of God abideth on him." Again, John vi. 27 — 29 : 
" Labor not for the meat which perisheth, but for that 
meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son 
of man shall give unto you : for him hath God the Father 
sealed. Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that 
we might work the works of God ? Jesus answered and 
said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe 
on him whom he hath sent." That this refers to the fu- 
ture state, is evident from the 40th verse : "And this is 
the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth 
the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life : 
and I will raise him up at the last day." Again, John viii. 
21 — 24: " Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, 
and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins; whither 
I go, ye cannot come. Then said the Jews, Will he kill 



OF XJNIVERSALItSM. 55 

himself! because he saith, Whither I go, ye cannot come. 
And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath ; I am from 
above : ye are of this world ; I am not of this world. I 
said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins ; for 
if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins." 
These texts I bring, as clear Scripture testimony, to dis- 
prove this feature of Universalism, viz: that God releases 
man from all obligation in this world, relative to his condi- 
tion in a future world. 

[Here Mr. Doolittle arose, and said the gentleman was 
not in order, and read the first question again, to show it 
had nothing to do with man's faith or practice in this world. 
After some discussion, a majority of the Judges decided 
that Mr. Power was in order.] 

I have a few moments left, and I will spend them in 
glancing at my position. 1 have adduced in my proper 
place, occupying the negative, counter proof against the 
system which I oppose, and to show that it does not stand 
by the word of God. 1 have adduced a class of Scriptures, 
to show that God has suspended man's eternal salvation, 
on condition of faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. 

[Time expired. 

[me. doolittle's seventh speech.] 

In reference to my remarks on the passage in John v., 
the gentleman represents me as saying, that this was a 
figurative resurrection. I think I said it was a spiritual 
and moral resurrection — from a state of moral death — in 
which condition in sin, individuals were. represented as be- 
ing in their graves. The word graves is used figuratively, 
not literally, denoting a state of moral and spiritual de- 
gradation, into which men were sunk ; and this resurrec- 
tion was to take them out of that state of degradation, and 
raise them to spiritual life. 

This whole passage has reference to what was transpir- 
ing in the age. The resurrection Christ speaks of, has 
reference, as 1 have said, to a spiritual and moral change 
on earth, and not to a state of immortality in a future 
world. It has no reference to the resurrection spoken of 



56 A DISCUSSION 

in 1 Cor. 15th. This was what I shewed. The construc- 
tion which the gentleman puts on it, makes this absurdity : 
he would raise all to life and all to damnation; that is, there 
is not an individual who has not done some good, and they 
(all that have done good) shall come forth to the resur- 
rection of life — they that have done evil (and all have 
done evil) shall come forth to the resurrection of damna- 
tion. So we see that in applying this to the immortal state 
we have this monstrous absurdity — that all are raised to 
eternal salvation, and all to eternal damnation. And as 
infants and idiots have never done good or evil, they will 
be excluded from any resurrection, and all others will 
have a double resurrection. 

Again, the gentleman takes much pains to establish this 
position — that any argument that is opposed to the Word 
of God, and contradicts itself, is absurd; I should not 
think it needs much, labor to prove this. We perfect- 
ly agree on this principle. But whether he or I advances 
such arguments^ you my friends, are to judge. 

Again, he challenges me to prove that he and Paul are 
at issue. W ell, we accept the challenge, and proceed to 
give the proof. We have shown clearly and conclusively 
with respect to the subject of the resurrection, that our 
friend and Paul are at issue — that they take two directly 
opposite positions, as opposite as the poles, as different as 
light and darkness. The position our friend Power takes 
on the doctrine of the resurrection is, that the resurrec- 
tion, the highest, most glorious, and most perfect and entire 
change described in God's Word, does not change or affect 
the moral condition of man — does not touch the condition 
of the soul — that it has reference only to the body. But 
the position taken by Paul is, that the resurrection of 
the whole human family is a state of complete exemption 
and freedom from all sin, pain, infirmity and suffering, and 
every evil both physical and moral— that it clothes the 
whole human family with incorruption and immortality, 
and places them in honor, in power and glory, where they 
will all rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory, 
and shout, death where is thy sting! and grave where 
in thy victory! and give thanks to God for the victory over 



OF UNIVERSALIS^. 57 

every foe both to God and man, through our Lord Jesus 
Christ. The Apostle adds, by way of explanation, ''The 
sting of death is sin ; and the strength of sin is the law : 
But thanks be to God who giveth us the victory through our 
Lord Jesus Christ" — Here, too, implying, that Jesus Christ 
is the agency in raising all men from a state of corrup- 
tion, dishonor and weakness, and clothing them with pow- 
er and glory, incorruption and immortality, and placing 
them on an equality with the Angels, making them chil- 
dren of God, being children of the resurrection, and 
not subject to death any more. — This then, is an entire 
change, giving entire freedom from sin and suffering, from 
physical and moral evils of every kind — a change, which 
will fashion their vile bodies into the likeness of Christ's 
own glorious body, and our moral natures into the express 
imasfe and likeness of the moral character of Jesus Christ. 
Hence the Savior says, " I am the resurrection and the 
life." Thus you see, that the gentleman and Paul are at 
issue; and now shall we take Elder Power's position or 
Paul's, as the true position ? The gentleman glanced at 
this position and then passed by it, and I doubt not he will 
try to get still farther from it, for he dare not meet it in 
the face. He sees his difficulty. 

Another position I took, which the gentleman has not 
examined, was, that it was God's absolute purpose and re- 
vealed will, that all men should become holy and happy in 
nn immortal state of existence. This 1 proved yesterday, 
but will call your attention to it again. 

With respect to the will of God, 1 quoted 1 Tim. ii. 4 : 
* Who will have all men to be saved, and to come to the 
knowledge of the truth." u For (to this end, adds Paul,) 
there is one God, and one mediator between God and man, 
the man Jesus Christ ; who gave himself a ransom for all 
to be testified in due time." — i. e. it shall be made manifest 
in the end, that Christ gave himself a ransom, died for all 
mankind, for their redemption, and ultimate holiness and 
salvation, that the will of God might be accomplished — 
that all men should be saved. And this was to take place 
when the dead are raised, and Death, the last enemy is 
destroyed. Here I want vou to understand w T here the pro- 

5* 



58 a discussiok 

mise 19 made that death shall be destroyed. It is found in 
Isaiah xxv. 7, 8: " And he, Jehovah, will destroy in thi& 
mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, 
and the vail that is spread over all nations. He will swal- 
low up death in victory ; and the Lord God will wipe away 
tears from off all faces ; and the rebuke of his people shall 
be taken away from off all the earth : for the Lord hath 
spoken it." Such, my friends, is the will of God toward 
all people. He will wipe tears from off all faces. Again, 
we have God's will recorded in Ephes. i. 8 — 10: "Wherein 
he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence :. 
Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, ac- 
cording to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in 
himself: That in the dispensatibn of the fullness of time, 
he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both 
which are in heaven and which are on earth; even in 
him." Now we find that this will of God, with respect 
to the final gathering of all things in Christ, is a will of 
purpose. And in respect to this purpose, as Dr. Adam 
Clark says, he did not consult men, angels, or devils — it 
was his own eternal purpose, that all men should be saved. 
Now, if all men are not saved, then God will be disappoint- 
ed ! and there is some power able to frustrate the will of 
God ! But can this be done ? No ; no one can turn back 
the hand of God. "My counsel shall stand and I will do 
all my pleasure." And Paul tells us, that He worketh all 
things (in relation to the salvation of all men) according to< 
the counsel of his own will. Now, if you say this will not 
be done, that men will not be saved, then you say that God's 
will will be frustrated by some power; which is most mon- 
strously absurd. We want the gentleman to bear this ar- 
gument in mind, and take it in, hand, and see if it is false. 
The gentleman made, some very strange observations 
in his last speech ; and they seem the more strange to me, 
because from what I had heard of the many opportunities 
he had had of forming correct conclusions. I had supposed 
ho could represent us a little more correctly. He came 
forward here, and said we released all men from any obli- 
gation to love and serve God, in this world. He says too, 
we tell men from the pulpit, that they may cast off all fear,, 



OF UNIVERSALISM. 59 

and go on in all manner of crime in the world. Now I 
would ask this respected audience, if any of you ever 
heard a Universalist preacher teach such a doctrine as this 
from the pulpit ? Have you ever seen it in any of our 
writings? 1 pronounce the statement unqualifiedly false, 
and challenge the gentleman to prove it. 

We said, yesterday, that God held men responsible to 
love and obey him, and to love their neighbors as them- 
selves. If there is any doctrine that we hold sacred it is 
this. We never advocated any other doctrine. It is a 
monstrous perversion — is slanderous and false, to make 
the charge, that we do. I say this in ail calmness and de- 
liberation, and 1 should wish to be treated in the same 
manner, should I bring such a false and slanderous charge 
against our Methodist friend. 

Now I wish to be distinctly understood, that we hold as 
firmly as our friend does, that all men are under obliga- 
tion to love and obey God, and respect all the rights of their 
fellow men. We hold that they will be punished to the 
full extent they deserve, for every violation of this obli- 
gation. But at the same time, we do not attach the same 
importance to this, which he does. We do not believe that 
God has promised or threatened endless happiness or end- 
less punishment for what men may do in this world. 

We look upon faith and good works as a great good in 
this world, but we do not believe that endless reward i3 
attached to a man's faith and good works in this life. We 
cannot believe that immortal life and happiness are be- 
stowed on the Christian on the score of merit, or of good 
works here. Salvation is the gift of God's unmerited mer- 
cy. When we get home, we shall shout Grace, Grace, 
all of Grace. Yes, salvation is all of Grace, from the 
foundation to the topmost stone. 

Elder Power says, that everlasting life is predicated on 
faith. Now, my friends, I want you to understand in what 
sense the phrase life, and eternal life, are use used in the 
New Testament. You ought to know that everlasting life 
is said to be enjoyed in the present tense, by believing and 
embracing the Gospel. For proof of this, we read John xviu 
3: "And this is life eternal, that they might know the only 



-00 A DtSCtJSSIOK 

true God, tmd Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." Again, 
says Christ, " He that believeth on me hath everlasting 
life." He hath it, in the present tense. Again, John v. 
24 : "Verily, verily, I say unto you, he that heareth my 
word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting 
life, and shall not come into condemnation ; but is passed 
[mark] from death unto life." " The words that I speak, 
they are spirit and they are life." You see this everlast- 
ing life which my friend quoted, is said to be enjoyed by 
the believer in this world, as the consequence of faith in 
the Son of God. *< He that believeth on me, hath ever- 
lasting life." Now T what one has, does he want to go into 
the future world to get ? This everlasting life has no re- 
ference to life in the immortal state; it has reference to 
this world alone."— [ Time expired. 

[mr. power's seventh reply.] 

Gentlemen Moderators and the Audience: — It may be 
necessary first to settle a matter, that]according to the gen- 
tleman's version of it, certainly assumes a very serious as- 
pect. He has brought the charge against me personally, 
made it a direct personal matter, of public falsehood and 
slander. 1 take ail this patiently, but I give notice in ad- 
vance, thai I must be excused from following the gentle- 
man's example, in turning the main question at issue, into 
direct personal charges. 1 have no use for such material, 
in my counter proof. But as my worthy friend, has 
brought this charge of public slander and falsehood against 
me for a statement I made, I will repeat my statement 
correctly, and see if we cannot have this question settled. 
I have charged on Universalism, that it maintains, that 
men may live in all kinds of infidelity, wickedness, athe- 
ism, — indulge in all manner of crimes through life, and 
commit suicide at last, and yet go unconditionally to heav- 
en. Now this charge, is either true or false. If it is 
true, then there was no ground, on which to base the 
charge of falsehood and slander against me. If it is not 
true, then it will follow that crimes unrepented of will 
keep men out of heaven, and Universalism is false. Now I 



OF UNIVERSALIS!*. 61 

have a right to ask you, Mr. Doolittle,. does not Universal 
Usm, maintain that no possible crime that men can com- 
mit, can keep them out of heaven? [Mr. Dbolittle. " I 
will observe that this is another question. We believe, as 
does the gentleman, that the chief of sinners may be sav- 
ed."] I did not ask the gentleman to make aLpeech, but 
to answer the question directly, [Mr. D., 1 said you 
brought the charge, that our public preachers, told men 
from the pulpit, that they might go on in all the sin they 
pleased till death, and it would not keep them out of heav- 
en.] Well does not your system maintain that? [Mr. D., 
this is not the question at this time.] 

Well gentleman Moderators: — the gentleman shrinks 
from answering the question he is bound in honour to an- 
swer. He has declined and publicly refused to answer it. 
And now I make this assertion before this community, 
and he is bound in justice to his system, and in courtesy to 
this community, to correct my statement if it is false. I 
make this statement openly and publicly, — that Universal 
hsm does maintain, that a man may be guilty of falsehood, 
of perjury, of seduction, of adultry, of theft, of robbery, 
of murder, of infidelity, of blasphemy, of atheism, and of 
all these crimes, in the most aggravated forms, indulged 
in through life, and that he may consummate his crimes by 
suicide, and rush into eternity , posse ssin g this moral char- 
acter, and yet be unconditionally sure of heaven in a future 
world. 

Now I make this public declaration, and the gentleman 
is bound, if his system does not maintain this, to make it 
clear before this community. But I claim that I am cor- 
rect here* and state the fundamental features of the sys- 
tem which I oppose. 

If the charge is, that I am guilty of falsehood and slan- 
der, in saying that the preachers of this doctrine teach 
this — if I am in error in this, it only aggravates their dif- 
ficulty, if they do not preach this, then they do not preach 
their own system. They impose on the unsuspecting pub- 
lic, and preach something else besides their real senti- 
ments. It may be I am mistaken, — though I deny the 
charge of slander—at may be they do not preach their 



%% A DISCUSSION 

doctrine, that they preach one thing, and hold a system 
different in all respects. It may be that they dare not 
preach all the features of their doctrine, lest its gross in- 
fidelity should be too manifest, and but few would receive 
it. It may be that the preachers have not as much hon- 
esty a3 I had accredited to them, to preach their true sys- 
tem. Let the gentleman show that they do not preach 
this doctrine, and I will publicly acknowledge, that they 
are not as honest as I had supposed. But let him bear iti 
mind that the moment he convicts me of slander in this, he 
will convict himself, and all who pretend to teach the doc- 
trine he holds, of concealing their real system, and teach- 
ing another, to deceive the public. 

1 now pass to some other points. But would remark 
here, that an adjournment seems to help my friend much. 
It makes his first speech after it altogether the beat one. 
But to the subject. First the passage in John. He tried 
to diminish the force of my argument, from this passage. - 
And it was a repetition, I believe for the third time. You 
recollect he stated that they, that had done good in their 
figurative graves,— though he had just denied that he used 
the term figurative, yet he had to bring in the word figu- 
rative after all. And you will find, if he figures away 
this passage, he will have to figure pretty largely, — they 
that have done good in their figurative graves of corrup- 
tion, of sin, shall come forth unto the resurrection of spi- 
ritual life. But let us apply this rule of intei-petration to, 
the latter part of the passage, it will read, " they that 
have k done evil in the figurative graves of corruption, 
shall come forth, to a spiritual resurrection of damnation." 
But what state were such in before they were raised? Why 
in a state of damnation. And what are they raised to? 
Why to a state of damnation. Now a system that makes 
such ridiculous nonsense of the word of God as this, must 
be utterly false and unsound. 

Mr. D., tried to raise the difficulty again, that I would 
make a double resurrection — one to life and the other to 
damnation. You recollect I showed, that those who are 
raissd to life, are those who have believed on Jesus Christ, 
mi& followed him in holy living in this life — that all such 



ON UNIVERSALIS*. 63 

will be raised litterally to eternal glory, at the end of 
time, and they that have done evil, those who have lived 
in practical unbelief and sin, rejecting the Savior through 
life and in death, shall rise literally, to a state of condem- 
nation, with the wrath of God abiding on them forever. 

I was surprised, that he should start the question again 
about infants and idiots, after I had quoted the passage, 
where it declares the dead small and great, should in the 
resurrection, stand before God, including all infants and 
idiots as well as others. 

Again, that my friend and the Bible are at issue, 1 have 
only to refer you to my argument concerning the resur- 
rection, and the difficulties there placed is his way: I 
have shown you, (and certainly the audience — will have 
this part of the gentlemen's argument by heart,) that he 
has to reject Jesus Christ, making him only an ideal some- 
thing. Whereas the Bible, every where represents him 
as a real person, God manifest in the flesh. Here you 
see, Mr. D. and the Bible are in direct opposition. And [ 
repeat, that a system which contradicts the Bible, as plain- 
ly as this does must be false. 

Again, we remind you, that we denied that this resur- 
rection, had reference to the soul, on this principle That 
if it is applied o the soul, it must make the soul mortal. 
If " this mortal must put on immortality," including the 
soul, the soul must now be mortal. Hence we say, his 
argument here falls infinitely short of sustaining his posi- 
tion. And we shall repeat this reply to this argument of 
his, as often as he brings it up. Unless at least, he brings 
it up in some different form. 

Again, the Divine will. , We have already remarked, 
that the question whether the divine Being has a will and 
purpose, is not the point in debate : but, the question is, 
has this Divine purpose fixed the moral character of all 
men, in a future world, without any conditions or regard 
to his character here? The gentleman has to take this po- 
sition, but he has failed to addu e the proof. He refered 
again, to 1 Tim. 2 3. And again we ask the question: Is 
the will of God absolute in this case? Is it the will of 
God, that all men should come to the knowledge of the 



€4 A DISCUSSION 

truth in this world? Matter of fact, shows that all do not 
come to the knowledge of the truth in this world. Then in 
order to make the will of God absolute, in regard to man on 
earth, he must take the ground, that the very reason why 
men are living in error, in sin and in blasphemy, is, that 
it is God's will and purpose, that they should thus live. 
Who will take this ground. While the very language of 
God is M Look unto me all ye ends of the earth and be sav- 
ed " ? It is plain then the will of God is not absolute here* 

Again, Mr, D. made quite a flourish on the 25th of Isa. 
Now the scene the prophet describes there, means some- 
thing iu this world, or something in the future world, or 
something that refers to bo'h worlds If he takes the 
ground, that the scene is confined to this world, he yields 
the whole question and gives up the point. If he admits 
that it applies both to this and the tutu re world, the con- 
clusion is the same. Then the only alternative for him, is 
to confine it to the immortal state in the future world. 
Well let us look at it in this light. The tenth versa reads, 
" For in this mountain shall the hand of the Lord rest, 
and Moab shall be trodden down under him, even as straw 
is trodden down for the dung-hill." What a splendid 
scene, the gentleman will have in the immortal world. 
Moab shall there be trodden down as straw on the dung- 
hill. And these, mark, are scenes in the heavenly 
world! Would the prophet ever utter such a monstrous 
absurdity as this! Impossible! Then this all belongs to 
this world, and refers to the spread of the Gospel among 
the nations of the earth. 

My fnenl in speaking of the resurrection, has several 
times, refered to the angels of God, — that those raised are 
equal to the angeL, are the children of God, being chil- 
dren of the resurrection. Now it is plain, that he gets no 
support from this. The declaration of our Savior, at this 
time has reference alone to men's relative condition in the 
future woild. The ^adducees who denied the resurrection, 
brought up the case of a woman, who had seven husbands, 
and wanted to know whose wife she should be in the re- 
surrection. The Savior told them that in the resur- 
rection state they neither marry nor are given m mar- 



OF UNIVERSALISM. 65 

riage, neither can they die any more, for they are equal 
unto the angels, — referring to the relative condition of 
men — the angels did not marry, neither should they. 
But they should be the children of God, being the child ren 
of the resurrection. Now, if there is any thing here 
from which he can derive any support, it is the assumption 
that to be a child of God in any sense, is to be holy and 
happy. If he takes this ground, we are prepared to show 
him that men in this relation are not always made holy 
or happy. 

Friend D., has attempted to start a difficulty — and it is 
the only point on which he can plant himself, in hostility 
to our counter proof. He says, everlasting life is enjoyed 
in the present tense ; and from this he concludes, it 
can have no reference to the future world. Now this ever- 
lasting life is either enjoyed alone in this worid, and men 
are entirely destitute of it in the future state, or it is be- 
gun to be enjoyed here and is consummated in the future 
world. If he confines it to this world, then if he gets men 
raised at all, it is without eternal life. If he chooses not 
to take this ground, he must admit that this everlasting 
life commences here in the believer in Christ, and is per- 
petuated eternally. 

Before sitting down, I will call Mr. D.'s attention to the 
statement I made — whether I represented his system cor- 
rectly—whether men can commit any sins that will keep 
them out of heaven? — [Twie expired. 

[mr. doolittle's eighth speech.] 

With respect to this point, my friends, the charge which 
Elder Power brought against the public teachers of Uni- 
versalism, we say he has not yet proved it. He charges 
the public advocates of Universalism, with telling men 
from the pulpit, that they may cast off all fear of God, 
and live in all manner of crimes, and yet be just as sure 
of heaven, as if already there. This is the substance of 
the charge, though he added a great many more words, 
making it much more glaring. This, we repeat again, 
is a false and slanderous charge. 

6 



66 A DISCUSSION 

The gentleman, when he arose said, " I now call on Mr* 
Doolittle to say whether the system of Universalism does 
not hold, that men may live and die in all manner of 
crimes, and yet be sure of heaven ?" Now I would ask 
my friend, if he does not believe that men may commit all 
manner of sin, and yet be sure to go to heaven ? Says 
Paul, " This is a faithful saying and worthy of ail accep- 
tation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sin- 
ners ; of which I am chief." Now if the chief of sinners 
could be saved, why not others who are less than the ehief ? 
We do believe, that persons dying in their sins, may be 
saved by the Grace of God ; this we hold. But we do 
not hold that men may go on in sin, and do all manner of 
wickedness, and escape the final punishment due to their 
crimes, and be saved irrespective of moral character. 

The great cardinal point on which we are at issue, is 
this: that all men, that every rational being, may be saved, 
and will be saved ; but not without reference to their moral 
character. We do not believe they will be saved in their 
sins. We believe they will be purified from all sin. We 
hold and believe, and proclaim it to the world, that the 
chief of sinners will be saved— that God will gather to- 
gether, as says Paul, in one all things in Christ. How 
gather them together? In their sins. No. He that is in 
Christ is a new creature — he is born again, made holy and 
fit for heaven. The salvation which we hold to, is a sal- 
vation from sin, from all sin, yea from every corruption, 
and from every evil both physical and moral. And we 
believe that a man, though he may be so blind a prodigal, 
so far wandered from his father's house as to go great 
lengths in sin, and even blaspheme the name of his Maker, 
and die a suicide, — that such a man, by the infinite and 
abounding grace, love and mercy of God, when His arm 
is stretched out and mighty to save — and His arm is not 
shortened that it cannot save — that even such a man may 
be saved. But we do not believe that men are saved in 
their sins, as our friend would try to make you think, nor 
without any means of Grace. 

I hold in my hand the profession of faith of theUniver- 
galists denomination. And to show you from this, what 



OF UNIVERSALIS^. G7 

hold on this point, I will read, Art. 9, Concerning Re- 
pentance. Faith, and Lor* 

M We believe according to the divine doctrine and 
preaching of Christ and his Apostles, that repentance to- 
wards God for sin, faith in our Lord Jesus Christ, and 
love to God and our fellow creatures, are means of Grace 
appointed by God, and essential to our salvation and glo- 
ry." "Matt iv. 16, and xxii.37, 40; Mark i. 15; Acts 
lit. 19, viii. 31, and xx. 21 ; Heb. xi. 6; 1 John iii, 24, 25." 
\- this charge of the gentleman, with all respect to 
him, we pronoun .cause it We do not 

believe he would bring a false charge willfully or design- 
edly. It is for the want of light that he has done it; and 
as the sin of ignorance is to be winked at, we will let this 
matter pass. 

A^ain, a word about the resurrection. My friend says, 
I refer to this very often. Well, I told hirri yesterday, 
that this argument should haunt him, and I mean it shall. 
This argument is a 3 tt cannot be broken. 1 quoted 

from the 20th Chap, of Luke, to show what would be the 

ile of man in the resurrection from the dead — that they 

uld be like the ar. and pure — that they are 

not subject to death any more, but are the children of God, 
being the children of the resurrection. This is a complete 
redemption and deliverance, as Paul says in the 8th of 
Romans, from the bondage of corruption into the glorious 
liberty of the children of God. And what will.be the 
concluding scene of all this? "Death the last enemy is 
destroyed." c; Death is swallowed up in victory." "Then 
shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death 

-wallowed up in victory." Where is this written ? In 
cue of the most glorious passages found in the Bible. And 

Lai applies it to the future world — he quotes from it, to 
show what will be the condition of men in the resurrection 
state, showing conclusively that he understands this pas- 
sage as applying to the future state. And here Mr. Pow- 
er and Paul are at issue. 

But our friend would have all the scenes described in 
this passage. (Isaiah, 25) confined to this world — would 
make the mountain here spoken of, only a mountain in 



68 A DISCUSSION 

Judea. Now it is customary for the prophets to speak of 
the place of God's peculiar manifestation of his glory 
and power, as a mountain of the Lord. All learned com- 
mentators would tell you the same. Now, in this moun- 
tain, the place of God's peculiar manifestation, shall the 
Lord of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things — • 
a rich spiritual feast shall be provided. But God shall do 
something more — he will destroy the face of the covering 
cast over all people, and the veil that is spread over all na- 
tions. By this covering, this veil, is meant the moral cover- 
ering of corruption and darkness; this shall be destroyed, 
cast off forever from all people and nations. He will 
swallow up death in victory, and thus destroy the last 
enemy— he will wipe away tears from off all faces— for 
the Lord hath spoken it. And from this chapter Paul 
quotes, and applies it to the immortal state: " Then shall 
be brought to pass the saying that is written, (in Isaiah 
25, which refers to the mountain of God's holiness,) Death 
is swallowed up in victory." Then shall be fulfilled the 
glorious promise that God shall wipe the tears from every 
weeping eye, and pains, and groans and tears, shall no 
longer be known. So says Paul, and so would Elder Pow^ 
er, if he could have the mist of darkness dispelled from 
him, and see things as they are. And it is really strange 
I think, that my friend is not already converted. It would 
seem that he either has a very obtuse intellect, or that 
he is, stubborn and unwilling to be convinced, for he does 
still adhere to his old view. But I do think that the con- 
viction rests upon his mind, that these arguments are irre- 
futable; for he has not refuted them. He has kept as 
near them as he could, and not touch them. He knew 
that it would not do to go too far from them, but he has 
not dared to take hold of them. But I will let this mat- 
ter pass, and come to another argument, — On the resti- 
tution of all things. And on this, I will quote Dr. Adam 
Clark, an able and most learned commentator. I would 
have it understood, however, that we do not go with him 
in all his length and breadth. There is something pecu- 
liar about him. He seems sometimes to be on right ground, 
and then again to involve himself in the same darkness 



OF UNIVERSALIS*!. 



60 



and difficulty that our friend Power does. The fact is, 
that Dr. Adam Clark, when he was let loose from his 
creed, and from the bias of his early education — when he 
spake the honest conviction of his soul, on these great 
proof texts, of the future destiny of man — he spake the 
true sentiments of Universalism, as strong as a man could. 
This I mean to show before I close. 

Now what he says on the final restitution of all things 
is valuable. It shows, too, that he was a man of goo'i 
sense and great learning. I now quote Acts iii, 21, and 
give Dr. Adam Clark's views on the passage: " Whom 
the heavens must receive, until the times of restitution of 
all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of ail his 
holy prophets, since the world began.'" The question 
here is, what does this restitution of all things mean? 
And as Dr. Clark gives the true view of Universalists 
on this passage, I will make a few extracts from what he 
says on this point: the time of the restitution of all things, 
" The word apokatastassis" says he, "from apo, signifies 
from, and Kathistanein, to establish, or settle any thing, 
viz. in a good state; and when apo is added to it, then this 
preposition implies, that this good state, in which it is 
settled was preceded by a bad one, from which the change 
is made to a good one." ***** Now (without read- 
ing all he says here,) he woi*ld have us understand, that 
tins word apokatastassis being connected, as it is, with 
vjhich God hath spoken by the month of his holy prophets, 
it must include the whole reign of grace, restoring all 
things, utterly destroying the reign of sin, and establish- 
ing the good state — a state in which man loves God with 
all his heart, soul, mind and strength, and his neighbor as 
himself. The conclusion of the whole is, taking the king- 
dom out of the hands of sin and satan, and putting it into 
the hands of righteousness and truth. 

These, my friends, are the views of Dr. Adam Clark, 
a most learned and able commentator; and these are our 
views, and we believe they are the only views that are 
right. — [Time expired. 



70 a mscussiosr 

[mr. power's eighth reply.] 

Gentlemen Moderators and Congregation: I have no 
objection at all to my friends reading Dr. Clark, and shall 
only make two remarks on this subject. First, if he could 
show that Dr. Clark was a thorough universalits, that he 
he always had been, and had maintained it throughout 
his Commentaries, it would not touch the question. The 
place for appeal for testimony is the Old and New Testa- 
ment. So his time is all lost in quoting from Dr. Clark. 

My second remark is, some persons are very unskilful 
in handling edge tools. For the Doctor's comment proves 
any thing but universalism. He refers this passage to 
the spread of the gospel in this world. He speaks of the 
effect of embracing the gospel in the believer's soul, and 
supposes the promise is that by and by the gospel will be 
universally preached and universally received and pro- 
duce its effect on every one, because ^very one shall re- 
ceive it, and this too is to take place in this world — he 
does not make it have any reference to a state of immor- 
tality beyond the grave. 

Would Dr. Clark teach that the gospel was to be preach- 
ed and believed in heaven? Never! He only speaks of 
the triumphs of the gospel in this world. Who would ev- 
er suppose that we should witness the triumph and spread 
of the gospel in the future world? No one. So you see 
rny friend has lost his time and his argument on this 
point. Dr. Clark is not so much of an universalist after 
all as my friend would claim him to be. 

One remark further, lest Mr. D. should suppose I did 
not mean to attend to every thing he says — in reference 
to my supposed ignorance. I confess I do not know any 
too much. But this is not the subject in debate, and 1 must 
again beg the gentleman to notice that I must be excused 
from following him into personalities. 

Eie, in refering again to the 20th Luke, did not meet 
the difficulties I placed in his way. Therefore, I will 
leave this till he meets my argument. 

I will now again notice my friend's creed for a moment. 
He charges me with falsehood and slander for making the 






02 tWI VERBALISM. ?! 

Statement I did respecting it. You recollect, ray friends* 
his confession in trying to get around the point, when I 
called upon him to set me right, if I had not stated his 
system correctly. You recollect how he met the call* 
founded injustice, to me, to himself, to his system, and to 
this community. It was by retreating to this — that they 
did not declare such a doctrine publicly from the pulpit. 
But in his speech he said they did hold that men might com* 
mit all manner of crime, and even end their life by sui- 
cide, and then they may be saved* But did he mean 
that such might merely — that it was a bare possibility 
that such would be saved? 1 He dare not take this 
ground. But still not satisfied with the position, he says 
the greatest sinner, even the chief of sinners, such as 
Faul, would be saved — the power of God was sufficient to 
change even his heart. And he endeavored to connect us 
in the same belief with himself. Now v/e believe that 
full provision is made for the salvation of the chief of sin- 
ners, and for all mankind, but this is not the question, 
The question is — is the salvation of man in heaven, whol- 
ly unconditional? And is it impossible for man by all his 
crimes, to prevent this salvation? He then gave this a- 
nother tu rn, and I was not surprised ; for I knew his great 
embarrassment. And although, he saw fit to be so very 
personal, I can overlook it all. But I cannot spare his 
system. He introduced his creed, to show, that he be- 
lieved as much in the necessity of faith, repentance and 
love, in order to salvation and glory, as I did. Now do 
this congregation, understand this to be the fact? I think 
not. The serpent lies concealed under this covering, and 
I will try and pull it off, that you may all see his hideous 
form. 

Mr. D. contends that his creed maintains that repen- 
tance, faith, and love to God and man, are essential to 
salvation. Now I ask, are they essential to salvation, in 
the future world, or in this world, or in both? Will he 
say that the system maintains the necessity of faith, love 
and holiness, here, in order to final salvation, and with- 
out these virtues here, there is no salvation in the future 
world? Will he say that his system maintains this? No ; 



*? A DISCUSSION 






he dare not. He knows it does not. Then the secret is 
out. — Thank you Mr. D., for giving me this hook. We 
have drawn your system out with it, and all now can see 
for themselves. It maintains behind the curtain, that there 
is no necessity whatever, for faith, or love, or holiness, in 
this life, in order to secure eternal life in heaven. It 
maintains, that a man may abjure all faith in the Bible, in 
Jesus Christ, in the existence of the Holy Ghost, in the 
being of God, — may perjure himself, may seduce the vir- 
tuous, may burn your house over your heads, may mur- 
der your children before your eyes, may commit robbery 
and theft, and every other crime, that can be committed, — 
the system we say, behind the curtain, maintains that a 
man may do all these things, and be as sure of heaven, 
by cutting his own throat, as if he were already there. 
And yet this system, before the public, will use smiles and 
soft words, and tell men they must repent, have faith in 
Jesus Christ, and love their fellow men, &c. &c, — using 
just enough, of the oil of Bible language, to make their 
machinery, run well through this world, and more cer- 
tainly and speedily carry men down to destruction. 

Now gentleman, the attempt was made this forenoon, to 
show, that I was not on the question, that I had made a 
new issue, I believe but few, if any, were affected by the 
effort. Mr. D. has maintained, as belonging to the first 
question, that man's salvation in a future world, was con- 
nected alone with the resurrection. 

I now proceed to adduce counter proof, by showing 
that he is wholly incorrect in his premises. God con- 
nects man's salvation in heaven, with faith, holiness, and 
obedience in this life. This is no new question, that I am 
stating. It is the main question ; and that too, without the 
advantages of the P. S. I refered to. I adduced in the 
forenoon, testimony from the word of God, showing that 
he that believeth in the Lord Jesus Christ, and obeys God 
in this life, hath everlasting life, and shall never perish. 
But that the wrath of God abideth, on all that do not be- 
lieve and obey in this world, and dying in this state, will 
abide on them forever. 

The argument I raise is, that these scriptures, impos- 



ON UNIVERSALISM. 73 

ing moral duties on men in this life, teach that these are 
conditions of securing eternal life. While my friends 
argument is, that they teach nothing in reference to man's 
immortal destiny. 1 am to show that eternal life, is con- 
nected with faith and love &c, in this world. And here I 
remark again, and the gentleman has not touched the 
point — that eternal life, is the highest blessing, that God 
has promised to man. 1 stated, that there might not be 
any retreat, that eternal life was confined exclusively, to 
the present world, or exclusively to the future world, or it 
is begun here by faith, and purification of the heart; and 
by " enduring to the end," its possessor will enjoy it for- 
ever, in the future world. I showed if he takes the po- 
sition, that eternal life is confined to this world, then there 
is no alternative, but to exclude it entirely from the future 
world, and no matter what he makes of the resurrection, 
none can be raised to eternal life. But he will not, take 
this ground, consequently he has no alternative on this 
point. Throughout the Bible, eternal life is promised to 
man alone, on condition of faith and holiness in this life. 

Again, the wrath of God abideth on the unbeliever, and 
he who abides in his sins, cannot come where Christ is* 
Now how long can man abide, or continue in sin? It is evi- 
dent they can continue in sin, through life and do. And 
that many remain so in death is equally plain. Now if the 
wrath of God abideth on all who are in their sins, and some 
live and die in their sins — must not such be miserable! 
And after his passage out of this life in his sins, can he be- 
lieve and be saved? I answer no. There is no repentance 
after this life. And gospel faith, will be absolutely out of 
the question there. And yet it is said, " he that believeth 
not, the wrath of God abideth on him." Now I remark 
that so far as [ show, that man's final destiny, is connect- 
ed with faith, love and holiness, in this world, so far I 
take all the ground from the gentleman. 

Again: to show that God has connected man's final des- 
tiny, his eternal salvation, with faith and obedience in this 
world, instead of having it depend entirely on the resur- 
rection, I quote 1 Cor. vi. 9 — 11 : "Know ye not that the 
unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not 



"* I A 1UKCUSSI0N 

deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulte 
rers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with man- 
kind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revi- 
lers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 
\nd such were some of you: but ye tire washed, but 
ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the 
Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God/' 

Again, in proof of the same position. Gal. v. 19 — 21 : 
"Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which art; 
these; adultery, fornication, uncleauness, lasciviousness, 
idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wruth, 
strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunken- 
ness, revellingsi and such like: of the which 1 tell you be- 
fore, as I have also told you in times past, that they which 
do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. 1 ' 
Again, Eph. v. 5, (3: "For this ye know, that no whore- 
monger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an 
idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ 
and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: 
for because of these things comet h the wrath of God upon 
the children oi' disobedience." Finally, under this head, 
Rev. xxi, 8; "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the 
abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sor- 
cerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in 
the lake which burnetii with tire and brimstone; which is 
the second death." 

Now, gentlemen, my opponent has but one point at 
which he can retreat — that is, to deny that the kingdom of 
l od, as used in these passages, has any reference to the 
future world. Well, if he take this position, it will not 
be difficult to show that there are hypocrites, and liars, 
and all kinds of evil persons, on earth — and such it is 
plain are shut out of the kingdom of God here, — they are 
not fit to be in the kingdom of God here, among the chil- 
dren of God. But we know that men have lived and died, 
gone into the future world possessing such a character, 
and as God has said that such shall not inherit the king* 
dom of God, and in as much as there can be no repen- 
tence or faith after death, it is still plain they must for- 
ever be shut out from the presence of God. 

f Time expired. 






ON UNIVERSALIS!*. 7.% 

[ME, DOOLITTMi's NINTH SPEECH.] 

I observe that our friend here, is getting somewhat en- 
gaged, he is waxing warm. — I admire his zeal, and only 
regret that it is not, exerted in a better cause — I have the 
impression, that lie rests under the conviction that it re- 
quires of him the strongest efforts, both physical and 
mental, to defend his position; and did 1 stand in his posi- 
tion, I shOO Id feel as he does, SO I am not sur prised to S< 
him make such desperate efforts. Put I will say that all 
he has said, is foreign from the main argument, which I 

last brought forward. In reference to the "mountain/ 1 

in the passage from [sa. 25, fie said nothing about it, and 
I fear will not, unless forced to it. l\a seemed to dwell 
on some things, in order to make capital out of them — to 
excite prejudice against our system — as if we had some- 
thing awful and monstrous, conceal ed from the public 
view. But my friends. ( hope you will keep cool and not 
be terrified. There is no Lion in the way, no terrible 
monster in ambush to pounce upon, and devour you. 

J regret that my friend, should deal in statements, simi- 
lar to what he has done before, saying that we teach, 
that men may go on in all crime, and cut their own thr 
and yet be as sure of heaven, as if they were already in 
heaven, and that we teach that all men will be saved, irre- 

■■ctive of moral character, [Mr. Power's here mad', 
correction, that he* said irrespective of moral character 
in J his world ] Well I am thankful the gentleman has 
made the correction. He admits then that Universalists, 
do hold that nien must have a good character in the fu- 
ture world, when they are saved. And I will now, ask 
the gentleman personally, if he expects to be saved in a 
future world, on the ground that, he pc moral char- 

acter, entirely free from all moral slain and pollution in 
in this world. [Mr. Powers replied that he would answer, 
this Or any Other question directly, provided the favor 
would be reciprocated.] Well I should not like to pledge 
myself, to answer every question. For even a child may 
ask a question, a philosopher cannot answer. Put I pre 
some the gentlemen will not take the position, that he will 



76 A DISCUSSION 

have eternal life, on the ground of his possessing a per- 
fect moral character in this world. For the Scripture 
saith, " there is not a just man on earth, that doeth good 
and sinneth not," and " if we say that we have no sin, we 
deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us." And I sup- 
pose that our good Presbyterian friends, hold that the 
most pious and holy christians, that can be found, have 
some imperfections here and need to be made more pure, 
before they are prepared for heaven, and I would ask the 
gentleman, if he leaves this world with some seeds, of 
moral pollution still remaining in him, if he does not ex- 
pect some change to take place in his character, either at 
death or after death. And yet he is finding fault with me, 
because I hold that such a change must take place. What 
too, the best of divines have held, and they hold this on 
the authority of the Bible,— that a change for the better, 
must take place with every christian, either at death or 
after, before they are fit for heaven: because the best 
have some imperfections about them here, have the seeds 
of sin yet remaining in them. Now if we can be cleans- 
ed and changed, from this small amount of pollution (if 
we may so speak) why cannot God, whose power is un- 
limited, change even the vilest sinner who dies in his sin, 
and fit him for heaven. 

Now, the gentleman accuses us of holding that even 
the pirate will be saved, even if he should commit suicide, 
and will by the great power and benevolence of God, be 
redeemed and saved evermore in the kingdom of immor- 
tality. Well, what is there terrible about this ? And why 
should he attempt to raise a great bugbear about this to 
alarm you ? My friends, does God change his disposition 
toward us, when we leave this world 1 1 learn from my 
Bible, that the Lord changeth not, that he is the same 
yesterday, today and forever. Now if God's disposition 
remains the same eternally, cannot the Almighty commu- 
nicate light, and knowledge, and truth, which shall sanc- 
tify, make holy and happy out of the body, as well as in 
this tenement of clay in this world ? Now, in order for 
the gentleman to make any available argument from this, 
it will devolve on him to show that all who leave this 



ON UNIVERSALIS^. 77 

world without a knowledge of God, must suffer endless 
woe ! And how many heathen fathers, mothers, hus- 
bands, wives and children, have lived and died, without 
even so much as ever hearing that there is a God or Sa- 
vior? All these, if the gentleman's argument has any 
force, must be thrust down to a hopeless state of misery, 
in an endless hell; because they have not exercised faith 
in God, of whom they have never heard. Now I chal- 
lenge the gentleman to put his finger on a passage of 
Scripture, that shows that because a man lives in this 
world in a state of unbelief in God, and leaves the world 
in the same state, that he is to remain so to all eternity. 
If he will do this, if he will produce one passage, for one 
plain passage, one thus saith the Lord is as good as ten 
thousand — I say, that if he will produce one declaration 
of God, that says that a man who dies in unbelief shall 
remain so to all eternity, I will yield up the whole ground 
at once and forever. But we know he is not able to do this. 

Now what is there so awful in the idea that even a man 
who commits suicide, should by the mercy of God, be saved. 
My friends, would not we rejoice to know that such a vile, 
wicked person, was purified — that all his sins were for- 
given? If we loved sinners as we ought, and as God loves 
them, I say would not we rejoice at such a glorious event 
as this? And would not my friend Power rejoice at it too? 
Yea, I know he would rejoice at it, we all would rejoice. 
All heaven would rejoice over this one sinner saved, more 
than over ninety and nine just persons, that needed no re- 
pentance. Now I see nothing awful, or anything to be 
frightened at in such an idea as this. 

With respect to this " everlasting life" I said that ever- 
lasting life was the effect of faith on the believer — the 
spiritual life of the soul, and that it is enjoyed in the pre- 
sent tense. Do you not know, friends, that the gentle- 
man believes that this everlasting life may be lost — that 
the believer, although he has it to day, may backslide to- 
morrow, and be damned to all eternity ? Certainly, he 
holds this doctrine. But remember, he has taken the po- 
sition, that this everlasting life is begun here, and would 

7 



78 A DISCUSSION 

continue till death and to all eternity ; irrespective of 
moral character. [Mr. Power here corrected, and 
said his position was, this life would continue if the be- 
liever was faithful till death.] But remember if the be- 
liever backslides, he looses this life. And mark, this is 
something very different from immortality. Immortality 
to man is the gift of God, irrespective of what man can 
do in this world. When man dies, it is for God to say, 
whether he shall live again. His being raised from the 
dead depends on God alone. Hence, I believe the Apostle 
has reference to this immortality when he tells us, "The 
wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life, 
through Jesus Christ our Lord." — " It is not of works lest 
any man should boast. The gentleman tells us that " he 
that believeth has life, and he that believeth not the wrath 
of God abideth on him," How long does the wrath of 
God abide on him? As long as he remains in unbelief. 
If my friend can show me that unbelief will last forever, 
I will give up the point. A man may be an unbeliever to- 
day, and to-morrow be converted, and become a sincere 
believer. This the gentleman believes, as well as L To 
sustain his position, he must show that the wrath of God 
will abide on the unbeliever to all eternity. If he will 
do this, I will give up. So you see it would be very easy 
for him to gain the day, if he only had the proof. But 
for want of the proof, when he comes near some of the 
strong arguments I have adduced, he contrives to slip 
around them. I have given him a number of arguments, 
and he has gone around them. [Power — What argu- 
ments ?} The one in respect to the mountain, in Isa. 25th, 
and the promise contained there ; and when you get through 
with that, let me hope you will not forget to examine this 
testimony, Rev. v. 11-13: " And I beheld, and I heard the 
voice of many angels round about the throne, and the beats, 
and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand 
times ten thousand, and thousand of thousands ; saying with 
a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to. receive 
power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honor, 
and glory, and blessing." But this is not all, we come now 
to the universal redemption — "And every creature which 



OK UNIVERSALIS?!. 79 

is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, 
and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, 
heard I saying, Blessing, and honor, and glory, and 
power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and 
unto the Lamb, forever and ever." Now here the 
great universai redemption is taught, in language not to 
be misunderstood. The gentleman may say this includes 
beasts, fowls, and all living creatures in this world ; he may 
extend it as far as he pleases, as far as Mr. Wesley or 
farther — he may tell us it proves too much ; but it proves 
all I want it to prove, in a restricted sense, viz. that all mor- 
al and rational intelligence will be redeemed. What the 
revelator means to teach most evidently is, that all the in- 
telligent creation, all who have been redeemed from the 
thraldom of sin, should here unite with one heart and voice 
with the angels of heaven, and shout blessing, and honor, 
and glory and power to Him who had so accomplished and 
perfected such a great and glorious enterprise, as the sal- 
vation of the whole world. There can be no doubt in 
wry unbiased mind, that this includes every rational and 
moral being. Says Professor Stewart, " Stronger lan- 
guage could not be used to embrace the whole intelligent 
universe, than is here employed."— [Time expired, 

{mr. power's ninth reply.] 

Gentle?nen Moderators, and the Audience — The first 
thing I notice is the xxvth Chap, of Isaiah. 1 did not no- 
tice it in my last speech, because when passing it, it did 
not occur to me, that the gentleman had referred to it 
again. I will remark again, that the prophet is here speak- 
ing of the political and religious condition of nations on 
earth — of the moral darkness that existed — of the spread 
of the Gospel — that by means of the Gospel, God would 
remove this veil, this moral darkness, that is spread over 
all nations. My friend understands this as belonging to 
the heavenly world. Then all nations are there covered 
with sin. Well, if this is the case, if all the human race 
are here included, according the explanation of Mr. D M 
ever}' individual is to go into the heavenly world in a state 



80 A DISCUSSION 

of sin, under the veil of sin, and yet he dont admit that 
there is any misery there ; and all these scenes, here de- 
scribed, are to be transacted in heaven, for there is no other 
place to go after death. And I only have to ask him to 
produce a single passage from the Bible, to show that there 
is a change from sin to holiness, to take place in the fu- 
ture world. If he will do this, I will give up my position, 
and turn Universalist preacher before I leave this village. 
Now I am just even with him in this proposition. 

You observed that Mr. D. had to come out on the ground 
that holiness m this life was not indispensable to salvation, 
And mark, he has confirmed my statement, that his sys- 
tem gives license to all men to go on in all manner of 
crimes, and still be sure of heaven. He has given us 
quite an apology for the self-murderer. He cant see any 
thing very awful in a man's cutting his throat, nothing in 
it that can exclude him for a moment from heaven. 

Now I am going to show you, on his system, that every 
man has the key of the kingdom of heaven in his own 
hands ; and that he has only to turn this key, and he en- 
ters into heaven. When a man gets tired of this world, 
just let him cut his own throat, and he is sure of heaven. 
This then is the key, and every one has it. The key is 
easily turned, and the door to heaven is at once opened. 

I would waive the point, whether 1 expect heaven on ac- 
count of my own personal holiness; but 1 do not wish to 
pass any point he requests me to notice. I will say that 
I suppose no man will enter heaven without holiness, and 
I suppose the Apostle entertains the same idea, when he 
says: "Having these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse 
ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, per- 
fecting holiness in the fear of God." But when I get to 
heaven — which I expect through the grace of God — I have 
no doubt I shall give all the glory to God. for my salvation. 

Mr. D. lost all the time he employed in trying to make 
out that I hold that a change must take place in death with 
every person, before he can enter heaven. His remarks 
on our Presbyterian brethren, appear to have been made 
to fill up the time, as they afford no support to his system. 
Jt matters not what others believe. We demand proof 






ON UNIVERSALIS!!." 81 

from the Bible, that any such change takes place in death, 
or subsequent to death, in any case. 

His next remark was not less inappropriate, the sub- 
stance of which is : If God never changes, then it follows 
that all persons may be changed and brought to heaven — 
as God has announced his will thai all men might be saved 
iu this world — as God will not change his purpose, then 
all men will be saved, in this life. But is this the fact ? 
Surely not. Now this is all based on an assumption, that 
God has willed to save all men, irrespective of their moral 
character in this life; which we deny in toto. 

Again: he says, God can communicate power to change 
the soul after it leaves the body, as well as he can before. 
This is mere evasion. The question is not what God can 
do by his omnipotence, but what he will do, as a righteous, 
moral Governor. We deny that a passage can be found 
in the Bible, where it is said that, provision is made for 
the change or salvation of any soul, that dies in his sins. 

He says he will yield the point, if I give him a text, 
showing that a man would remain in unbelief in a future 
state. Here is one, John iii. 36: " He that believeth on 
the Son, hath everlasting life : and he that believeth not 
the Son, shall not see life ; but the wrath of God abideth 
00 him." We know that multitudes die in unbelief. Now 
here it says, that the wrath of God abideth on those that 
believe not: I showed that gospel or saving faith, is im- 
possible after death. In the future world, all is knowl- 
edge and sight. The very moment an individual passes 
beyond the bounds of time, this faith is impossible. And 
if one dies in unbelief, he must necessarily always remain 
in that state. This point then is established conclusively. 

Mr. D. made a singular remark: "when a man dies it is 
for God to say whether he shall live again or not." This 
is another intimation of the true character of the 
system. Does he mean that the soul dies? It would seem 
that he questioned the immortality of the soul, notwith- 
standiog his disclaimer. 

I now turn to his quotation from Rev. v. 1 i — 13. To 
show that my friend can derive no support from this pas.~ 
sage, I will read the whole chapter; 

7* 



82 



A Disctssioft 



" 1. And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the 
throne a book written within and on the back side, sealed 
with seven seals. 

2. And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud 
voice. Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the 
seals thereof ? 

3. And no man in heaven, nor in earth; neither under 
the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look 
thereon. 

4. And I wept much, because no man was found worthy 
to open, and to read the book, neither to look thereon. 

5. And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: be- 
hold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Hoot of David, 
hath prevailed to open the boo-k> and to loose the seven 
seals thereof. 

6. And I beheld, and lo, in the midst of the throne, and 
of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a 
Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns, and seven 
eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into 
all the earth* 

7. And he came and took the book out of the right hand 
cf him that sat upon the throne. 

8. And when he had taken the book, the four beasts, and 
four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having 
every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours> 
"which are the prayers of saints. 

9. And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy 
to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou 
wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out 
of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 

10. And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: 
and we shall reign on the earth, 

11. And! beheld, and I heard the voice of many an- 
gels round about the throne, and the beasts, and the elders* 
and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thou- 
sand, and thousands of thousands; 

12. Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that 
was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and 
strength, and honor, and glory, and blessing. 

13. And every creature which is in heaven^ and on the 






ON UNIVERSALIS}*. 83 

earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and 
all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honor, 
and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the 
throne, and unto the Lamb, for ever and ever. 

14. And the four beats said, Amen. And the four and 
twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for 
ever and ever." 

Now mark, to have this avail him anything, all the 
scenes described here, must be referred to heaven; for re- 
member, according to his system, there is no other place 
for us after death, no misery : while it is evident that 
much of it must refer to the progress of the Gospel in the 
earth. The revelator uses highly figurative language hi 
his description, as is usual with the inspired writers, in 
predicting the spread of the Gospel in the earth. There 
is not a particle of Univer&alism to be found in this chap- 
ter, nor anything that can be tortured into this doctrine— 
that a man can go on in all manner of crimes through 
life, commit suicide at last, and then be sure of heaven. 

I have now gone over all his arguments, and I will not 
detain the audience to fill up all my time, but make only 
a few more observations, Mr, D. staked his system in the 
outset, and relied for the support of his affirmative, on 
the doctrine of the resurrection. I showed that his in- 
terpretation of the xv. of 1 Cor., rejected Christ, made 
him only an ideal being, and must be false. I showed 
that Jesus Christ was not an ideal being, and, that there 
was no other name under heaven given among men where- 
by we must be saved 5 so that he could have no salvation, 
according to his interpretation. 

I showed in the second place, that his main proof texts 
were wholly unavailable to him, or he denied the immor- 
tality of the soul. I called upon him to look this objec- 
tion in the face; for if this resurrection had reference to 
the body only, the character and condition of the soul was 
left untouched, and if he took the soul into the account, 
then he must take the ground that the soul dies, that it is 
mortal, and puts on its immortality in the resurrection. 
These facts destroy his superstructure. And I adduced 
oounter testimony from the word of God: first, from the 



84 A DISCUSSION 

Gospel of John; where it is said, all that are in their 
graves shall hear the voice of the Son of man and come 
forth; they that have done good, to the resurrection of 
life, and they that have done evil, to the resurrection of 
damnation. We showed his absurdity, in attempting to 
avoid the force of this scripture, in that this resurrection, 
according to his explanation, leaves those who have done 
evil in precisely the same state they were in before; for 
they are raised to condemnation, and they were in a state 
of condemnation before. So this text stands still as immu- 
table against his system, as the eternal throne. Then as 
an off-set to the difficulty he tried to start about idiots and 
infants, I quoted Rev. xx. 12, which he has never even no- 
ticed. 

I now lastly state and then close, that the gentleman 
takes the ground that man's eternal destiny is connected 
alone with the resurrection; while I showed that it is con- 
nected with faith and obedience in thisjife, and has no 
necessary connection whatever with the resurrection. 



Thursday, July 31 — 9 o'clock > A. M. 



[mr. doolittle's tenth speech.] 

It will be borne in mind, probably by the majority of 
those present, that the first argument I adduced to sustain 
my affirmative; was predicated on the resurrection to a 
state of immortality, incorruption, and glory, and holi- 
ness and happiness, in the immortal state of the whole 
creation of God. We held that the change effected at 
the time, would fit all for the enjoyment, of the presence 
of God forever — that it would mould the soul, into the 
very image and likeness of Christ, — into the similitude 
of the God and Father of their spirits, — and result in the 
entire redemption from every impurity, and every evil, 
both physical and moral, and that this change, would de- 
liver all from the bondage of corruption, into the glorious 
liberty of the children of God, would place them on an 



ON TTNIVERSALISM. 85 

equality in moral purity, with the Angels of God, because 
they would be made the children of God, being children 
of the resurrection, and not subject to death any more. 
This is the ground, on which we predicated our proof, 
mainly in support of the affirmation of the question in de- 
bate. 

We consider this one of the strongest pillars, of the 
super-structure on which we lean, the eternal rock, in 
proof of the doctrine of the ultimate holiness and happi- 
ness, of the entire human race, in a state of immortality, 
Jesus Christ being the chief corner stone. But Elder 
Power, joins issue with us here, and endeavors to impose 
on you the belief, that this change effects only the physi- 
cal man, the body, and does not touch the condition of the 
soul. Now I want to show you definitely, that our friend 
is. in error here, and that this change does affect the soul, 
as well as the body. For it is as ^susceptible of proof, 
that the soul is affected by this change, as it is that the 
body is affected by it. The very same proof, that shows 
a change in the physical condition, proves that a change 
is effected in the moral condition. 

The proof is contained principally, in the 15th ofl Cor. 
I want first to remind you, how far we travel together in 
this argument. We agree that Paul, here proves the 
resurrection of all men to immortality. Now the ques- 
tion arises, what will be the condition of all men when 
thus raised ; will it be the same, that it is before death, or 
will it be a change both moral and physical, which will 
make all holy and consequently happy. Paul says, it 
makes a change from corruption to incorruption, from dis- 
honor to glory, from an earthy image to a heavenly image, 
in fine an entire change from the bondage of corruption, 
to the glorious liberty of the children of God. 

If we do not prove this, then we do not sustain our position, 
but if we adduce the proof, then you are bound to consent, 
that our position is true, and mark ! We do not rest this 
matter on our assertion, but on the word of God. What 
is to be the result of this change? The Apostle here in 
speaking of this change, contrasts our present earthly cor- 
ruptible and impure condition, with the heavenly immor- 



86 A DISCISSION 

tal and incorruptible state after the resurrection. He 
tells us the first man, the representative of our race was 
earthy. " The first man is of the earth earthy, the sec- 
ond man is the Lord from Heaven. " And as is the earthy, 
such also are they that are earthy, and as is the heavenly, 
such are they also that are heavenly, and as we have 
borne the image of the earth, we shall also bear the im- 
age of the heavenly. Now by the first man, is meant 
Adam, that is the representative of our race, in the earthly 
condition — he was clothed in the earthly constitution— the 
Adamic nature. Now Christ is declared, to be the head 
or rep resentative of every man, in the heavenly constitu- 
tion. Now as we have borne the image of the earthy, we 
shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Does not this 
imply a moral change? Paul draws the conclusion, that 
as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also 
bear the image of the heavenly. Again, " For as in Ad- 
am all die, even so m Christ shall all be made alive." 
Now language more clear to establish my point, could not 
be found, than this to establish the point under considera- 
tion. 

It is beyond the skill of man, to avoid the force of this 
language. But to proceed ; says Paul, "Now rhislsay 
brethern, that flesh and blood, cannot inheritthc Kingdom 
of God, neither doth corruption inherit incorruption." 
Paul is here speaking about inheriting the future heavenly 
world, speaking of the change form mortality to immor- 
tality. Now nothing impure can gain admission into that 
state. But when raised up, as Paul has informed us, they 
shall be, they will be fit to enter in, — because all deformi- 
ty]and corruption, will be removed from them. 

Again, " Behold I show you a mystery, we shall not all 
sleep, but we shall all be changed; in a moment, in the 
twinkling of an eye, at the last trump." This change 
[mark,] is to pass on all, and all shall be changed, and all 
shall be raised. How raised, " and the dead shall be rais- 
ed incorruptible, and we shall be changed." Now not- 
with standing all this, our friend will tell you, there can 
be no moral change for the better after death. But if 
there is to be no change for the better, he, and all of us 



ON UNIVERSALIS!*. 87 

may despair, of immortality in heaven. For as 1 said all, 
including the best of men, will have some impurity, sin 
and corruption, resting on them in this life till death. But 
we are not to be left in the state, our friend would have 
us left in, for mark, what a change is to pass on all, — "For 
this corruptible must put on incorruption ; and this mortal 
must put on immortality." Now when this shall be done 
— "then shall be brought to pass, the saying that is writ* 
ten; death is swallowed up in victory! O death where is 
thy sting ! O grave where is thy victory." [Now I ask 
will there be any sinners there, on whom the sting of death, 
which is sin, will remain ! No! to make this clear Paul 
adds, " the sting of death is sin" then all are represented 
as exclaiming, " Thanks be to God which giveth us the 
victory, through our Lord Jesus Christ." From this, it is 
as plain as language can make it, that the sting of death, 
sin, will all be removed by the resurrection. But still, we 
find he has the presumption, to come forward here and 
assert, that this change will not affect the condition of the 
soul. Now what does affect the soul ! Does sin attach to 
the body or to the soul? Is the body held accountable, to 
the bar of God; or is the soul? These interogations do 
not require an answer. But here is a redemption, spoken 
of from that which" pollutes the soul, from all the effects of 
sin, from the sting of death, which we are told is sin. "The 
wages of sin is death; but here is a complete victory over 
death, and the song of victory, is sung in the highest 
strains of praise to God, for the great deliverance, and 
mark, all this glorious victory is achieved, through the 
resurrection, through our Lord Jesus Christ. 

Now my friends, I am willing to rest the whole argu- 
ment, on this one position, which we have repeatedly ta- 
ken, and which our friend has as often undertaken to re- 
move. He might as well undertake to shake the pillars 
of the universe. 

But I want to give you still more, for I know such is the 
strength of the old prejudices, to the contrary, on account 
of wrong training from childhood, that it is necessary to 
give precept upon precept, precept upon precept, line upon 
line, line upon line, here a little, and there a little, in or« 



88 A DISCUSSION 

der to bring you to see the truth, as it is on this important 
subject. many have rallied around, and pledged them- 
selves to support a creed, that teaches a very different 
doctrine, and I know it requires, great moral courage to 
face prejudice, and abandon a banner, under which they 
have fought, and around which, so many still cluster. If 
it had not been for this, as I said before, my friend here 
would have been converted before this time. And as I 
said, he must sin against much light. For I believe, he 
understands very well the principles of the Universal ists. 
He holds that a man may continue to resist the spirit, and 
be damned. But I have a more cheerful hope for my 
friend, and believe that he will yet bear a glorious part, 
in that song that shall go up to God, in seraphic strains, 
shouting victory over sin, death and the grave, and every 
foe, both to God and man. But as I said, I want to give 
you line upon line, precept upon precept, and I now invite 
your attention to the 25th of Isa., again to the glorious 
promise, relative to the final consummation. Our friend has 
labored to confine this, to this world. But did not I tell 
you, that Paul in speaking of this state, in connection with 
the resurrection, says when that shall have been effected, 
" then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, 
Death is swallowed up in victory, O death ! where is thy 
sting — O grave ! where is thy victory." And did I not 
tell you, that this saying is written but once in the Bible, 
and that too in this place, which our friend Power limits 
to this world. But does Paul limit this, to this world? 
Elder Power and Paul, are evidently in opposition, — If 
the Elder understands it right, then Paul understands it 
wrong. Now which shall we. believe — this is an impor- 
tant question. To err is human, and I would say, let God 
be true though every man be found a liar. 

Now mark, our friend says this mountain, is a moun- 
tain in Judea, in this world, [Mr. Power here interrupted, 
and said he did not say, it was a literal mountain in this 
world, but according to Mr. Doolittle's interpretation, this 
mountain and scenes connected with it were in heaven.] 
The interpretation I gave it was, that it was a figure for 
the kingdom of God's holiness, — the gospel kingdom. — 



ON UNIVERSALIS^. 89 

What is to be done in it? A feast is to be prepared. This 
has reference to the provisions of divine grace, in the 
gospel kingdom. — What is next to be done? God will de- 
stroy the face of the covering cast over all people, and 
the vail that is spread over all nations. Here it is taught 
that God will cause an entire change, both moral and phys- 
ical to take place on all people. Of course all people and 
all nations, include the whole human family, for where 
will you find people, after you have got all people. Then 
it says, " He will swallow up death in victory, and the 
Lord God will wipe away tears from all faces," What 
causes tears and death? Sin — sin is the cause of death. 
But here, not only the cause will be removed, but all the 
effects. Well Paul quotes this, showing that it reaches for- 
ward beyond the grave. At the final consummation of all 
things, at the resurrection, then shall be brought to pass 
the saying that is written. Death is swallowed up in vic- 
tory, and this saying is written in the 25th of Isa. Con- 
sequently this must refer to the future state. 

And this 1 say, is the conclusion of the matter, the final 
consummation, the winding up of the great scheme of Uni- 
versal Redemption. This is proved to be the final consu- 
mation, from what Paul says. " Then cometh the end, 
when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even 
the Father when he shall have put down all rule, and all 
authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put 
ail enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be 
destroyed is death". What does this mean, " till he hath 
put all enemies under his feet, and the last enemy that 
shall be destroyed i* death." Is there any enemy after 
the last enemy? But this last enemy shall be destroyed. 
Thus this end, results in the exemption of the whole hu- 
man family from sin, and from all the effects of sin, and 
we sustain the affirmative of the question. — [Time expired, 

[mr. power's tenth reply.] 

Gentlemen Moderators, and the Audience — We have been 
kindly favored this morning, with about the 9th edition of 
the gentleman's proof,without either a new chapter or verse. 

8 



90 A DISCUSSION 

But there is one point that he has made more definite, by 
endorsing what we stated in the out-set to this audience, 
viz. that the doctrine of the resurrection merely, as set 
forth in the xvth of 1 Cor., is the strongest ground which 
the system which I oppose can occupy. 

To refute this, I need only repeat my reply, as already 
given. But as the gentleman has been a little more minute 
than before, I will bestow some further attention to it. 
Although there was a little complaining last evening, in 
si friendly way, that I had attributed to my friend what he 
did not say, he has relieved me this morning. I charged 
him with denying, as a consequence his interpretation of 
this scripture relative to the resurrection, the personality 
of the Savior. He has now made this clear. Adam, he 
says, in the text, represents the earthly constitution, and 
Christ the heavenly constitution. So I am relieved here, 
of the charge of misrepresenting him. 

1 have now only to remind you that this position, this 
strongest proof in the Bible, of his system, is in direct op- 
position to the universal doctrine of the sacred Scriptures. 
For the Bible holds, that Christ is a literal, absolute, per- 
sonal, intelligent being ; God manifest in the flesh, and the 
only name given under heaven whereby we must be saved. 
The question under debate, is to be sustained, if at all, 
from the Scriptures. And you see, that the only ground 
on which he rests his proof, is in direct opposition to God's 
Word. 

Mr. D. took great care not to advert to my former re- 
futation of his position, viz: to sustain his ground by any 
appearance of proof, he must deny the immortality of the 
soul. But as he could not deny this, all his effort this morn- 
ing is perfectly lost. It leaves the soul wholly unprovi- 
ded for. As observed before, you see a good night's rest 
gives Mr. D. a very good first speech. But with all the 
improved strength, together with all the helps from other 
sources, he saw fit to pass this difficulty without a solitary 
remark. And his principal effort to sustain his position 
was made on the following declaration : " Now this I say 
brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom 
of God, neither doth corruption inherit incorruption 



ON UNIVERSALIS^. 



91 



Now here is sophistry. For you will observe, the Apostle 
here is saying nothing about moral corruption, as our 
friend would have us suppose, for the sake of assisting his 
argument. But he says, flesh and blood cannot inherit 
the kingdom of God. Now as this is the fact, Paul tells 
us what is to be done: " Behold I show you a mystery, We 
shall not all sleep, [die,] but we shall all be changed." 
What shall be changed? The soul? No ; he is not speak- 
ing of the soul, but of the body. Some, instead of dying 
in the common way, shall have their bodies instantly^ 
changed. The body shall put on immortality or an undy- 
ing constitution, in the resurrection. In the premises, Paul 
says not one word about the soul, for the soul is not mortal 
or subject to death ; and nothing but sophistry would bring 
the soul into the conclusion. 

We leave this intelligent audience to locate the sophistry 
that is brought to bear in this question. Every person 
acquainted with the first principles of Logic, knows that 
it perfectly vitiates an argument to bring more into the 
conclusion, than is contained in the premises. But Mr. 
D. slyly slips the soul into the conclusion, while it is not 
to be found in the premises. 

Now with the veil taken off, (and the gentleman, as is 
seen by his frequent reference to the 25th of Isaiah, at- 
taches great importance to taking off the covering.) we see 
how he arrives at the conclusion, that all shall be made 
holy and happy in the resurrection. 

Again: who are the enemies spoken of, that shall be put 
under Christ's feet and destroyed? The Bible decides, 
that the carnal mind is enmity against God — and that sin- 
ners dying in their sins are the enemies of God, Now, if 
the destruction of all the enemies of God means that they 
are taken to heaven, then death and all these are to be taken 
to heaven, for they are to be destroyed. This is the 
strength of Mr. D.'s proof: he maintains, that to be put 
under the feet of the Savior, is equivalent to being taken 
to heaven. But is this the Bible view? No. But to be put 
under feet, means degradation and death. Take a case. 
When the five kings of the Amorites* to escape Joshua's 
army took shelter in the cave ; when discovered, they 



92 A DISCUSSION 

were brought out, and the captains were commanded to 
put their feet on their necks, not as a token of their sal- 
vation, but as indicative of the degrading death they were 
consigned to. This is the Bible use of this expression; 
and it cannot be changed to accommodate the gentleman. 
He would be very glad to have it mean salvation. But 
even if it should, there would still be an insuperable diffi- 
culty; for then it would follow, that death would bo 
taken to heaven, and be eternally safe with God. Now 
this is the strong proof of the gentleman, on which he in- 
vites you to stake your eternal interests. 

We again notice Isaiah xxv. I have showed you that 
the scenes here described, belong to this world — the great 
absurdity of fixing them in heaven. My friend tries to 
prove their reference to the immortal state, by Paul's use 
of it. Now all know that the Apostles do refer to the Old 
Testament frequently, and apply it in an accommodated 
sense ; so Paul may be understood in this passage You 
will observe that the theme of the prophet is, a moral vic- 
tory; and the Apostle uses it, because it aptly expresses the 
work achieved for the body in the resurrection. 

In regard to the mountain, we perceive Mr. D. saw his 
difficulty. He first made it the mountain of God's holi- 
ness, and then the mountain of the Gospel kingdom. Does 
the Gospel extend into the future world? Does its work be- 
long to the future world to warn men to forsake their sins, to 
cease to blaspheme, repent, reform, and use thesacrements 
and means of grace? I ask, does the Gospel do this in tho 
future world ? He would not dare to assume that all this 
belongs to heaven; and yet, unless he does, his Gospel 
Kingdom avails him nothing, for that is confined to this 
world. Then he must come back to his mountain of God's 
holiness. Then all the nations of the world have to go into 
the mountain of God's holiness, in the future world, with 
their ignorance and darkness, and blasphemy, and the veil, 
meaning all moral pollution, spread over them. And in* 
to this mountain, Moab, with all his sins and corruption, 
is to enter in the eternal world, and is there to be trodden 
down as straw is trodden down for the dung- hill. Now 
let the gentleman meet this difficulty if he pleases* 



ON UNIVERSALIS, 03 

Mr. D. has staked every thing on the resurrection of the 
body. This is the main and almost only support of his 
system. 1 have shown on the authority of the Holy Scrip- 
tures, which he has not even noticed, that God has connect- 
ed man's future destiny with faith and obedience in this 
life, and without these he cannot bs saved. You see plain- 
ly, if the system of Universalism gets any support at all 
from the argument of the resurrection, it is on the ground 
that through the resurrection alone men are changed, and 
made new creatures in Cftrist — made holy and fit for hea- 
ven. We now proceed to show that morally to be in Christ, 
and be fitted for heaven, has no necessary connection with 
the resurrection — that God has fixed salvation on other 
conditions entirely than the resurrection, and that unless 
these conditions are fulfilled on the part of man, he is 
raised to a resurrection of damnation. We quote from 
2nd Cor. v. 5,6: " Now he that hath wrought us for the 
self-same thing is God, who also hath given unto us the 
earnest of the spirit. Therefore we are always confident, 
knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are 
absent from the Lord; for we walk by faith, not by sight." 
" Hath wrought us," mark; not in the resurrection, but in 
this world a moral change is wrought in the soul , and 
without this being done, there can be only a resurrection 
to damnation. And jamrk, fdUhis inseparably connected 
with the salvation of the soul; and I have shown you, that 
there is no place for faith in the future world. "Where- 
fore if any man be in Christ he is a new creature." How? 
Why as explained before, by faith in Jesus Christ. Gai. 
v. G: "For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth 
any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh 
by love." The resurrection of the body depends alone 
on the will of Jesus Christ ; while the change to be effect- 
ed in the soul, the moral change, in order to fit it for hea- 
ven, is conditioned on faith ; and faith takes place only 
in this world. — [Time expired. 

8* 



94 A D2setrs3io$ 

[MR. DOOLITTI/E'S EI/EVENTH SPEECH. J 

Our friend seems to think that our comfortable nighrs 
rest is a great help to me in making out an argument. I 
wish I could say the same of him. But 1 should think in 
listening to his argument just brought forward, that he 
has been but little benefitted by a night/s rest. I could 
have saved him from much of his labor, but chose to de- 
fer it till I arose. 

I will now refer him to one point once ujore. For 
he has endeavored to throw dust in your eyes, on the ar- 
gument from the resurrection. This he has endeavor- 
ed to do, relative to the person of Christ and his agency 
in. man's salvation. He says the position 1 occupy, denies 
the personal agency of Christ in man*s salvation, and ia 
the resurrection. This is a very strange idea for him to 
advance, I supposed I had explained this so clearly, that 
he would see it, and we should hear no more about the 
matter. I told you that the resurrection was effected 
through the personal agency of Jesus Christ — that the 
great change which would place the whole human family 
in a state of immortality, incorruption, holiness and hap- 
piness, make them equal unto the angels, and not subject 
to death any more— that this change was effected through 
the agency of Jesus Christ. And yet, my friend comes 
up and says I throw the Savior out of the account alto- 
gether. We most fully recognize Christ as the redeemer 
and Savior of the world, and believe that God hath cloth- 
ed him with his own authority, and endowed him with 
power and might without measure, in order that he might 
accomplish this work. We believe he will redeem man 
from every species of corruption. Hence, says Paul, and 
so say we too, "Thanks be to God which giveth us the 
victory through our Lord Jesus Christ." Now I hope the 
gentleman will not get up again and say we deny the 
agency of Christ in man's redemption, for to make it clear 
I was explicit on this point; but I presume, for I wish to 
he charitable, that owing to the fog before his eyes, my 
friend did not see it. 

Again: he says my views of the resurrection leads me 



ON TJNIVERSALISM. 9s> 

to deny the immortality of the soul. Well, this is merely 
an assertion, without any proof. It is not necessary that 
I should go over the ground again minutely, and adduce 
passages to prove conclusively to every unprejudiced 
mind, that the change effected by the resurrection, is a 
moral, as well as a physical change. I showed, and my 
friend will not deny, that the best of christians have some 
moral pollution about thern till the close of life, and that 
there must be some change for the better at, or after 
death, or else we may all despair of holiness and happi- 
ness in heaven. Because nothing can enter there, that 
has the least moral deformity. But here, we say, all have 
some seeds of moral pollution remaining. How are these 
to be removed? We say, by the resurrection change. 

Now I want to ask my. friend one question. As every 
individual is to be raised up in the resurrection, and as 
we agree that all will possess immortal, incorruptible bo- 
dies, I ask — Do you believe that a sinful and polluted soul, 
in the resurrection will be joined with an incorruptible and 
perfect body? [Power — Yes 1 do. The body till itjis united 
with the soul, has no moral character about it whatever, 
but derives all its moral character from the soul. ~} Well, 
now we may go home, for he has conceded all we wish. He 
has conceded that the body receives its moral character 
from the soul. And we have proved, which he does not de- 
ny, that all will be raised up with pure incorruptible, im- 
mortal bodies, and as they receive their character from the 
soul, it must follow that every soul in the resurrection is 
pure and incorruptible. The gentleman has conceded this 
unfortunately for him, for it demolishes his whole theory 
and as 1 said, we may as well go home in peace lejoicing 
in hope of the glory of God, in the final and complete re- 
demption of the whole human race from the bondage of 
corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 

But in order that our friend may not lose sight of this, 
and lest it should not result in his conversion, I will em- 
ploy a few moments more in making the subject a little 
more lucid. He admits ;hat the soul and body are to be 
united, and has conceded that the body receives its moral 
character from the soul. We likewise agree that all bodies 



06 A DISCUSSION 

will be raised incorruptible. Now 1 want no stronger ar- 
gument than this in support of the final and entire redemp 
tionofall intelligent beings to immortal happiness. And 
do believe that my friend is struck under conviction b 
the truth of the Apostle, and I do hope he will yield to the 
full conviction and we shall all be brought home to glory 
in the full belief of this glorious doctrine; my friend will 
rejoice there if he does not here. Now I am afraid that 
the mountain] in labor in my friend's mind, will not pro- 
duce the proper fruit 1 will enquire here if the angels 
in heaven have impure souls And mark, the Savior says, 
< ; ali who obtain that state are equal to the angels and be- 
com e children of God, being children of the resurrection." 
Now if all are equal to the angels, they must resemble 
them likewise in moral character must be pure as the an- 
gels. It is plain, the redemption, will be complete. Paul 
informs us it will be a victory over the last enemy, Death. 
What constitutes death? Let us look at this, for I want 
you to see the whole of it. Death is an effect. Now the 
removal of an effect supposes no longer the existence of 
the cause of that effect. It is a sound principle, in philo- 
sophy that cause and effect are inseparably connected, 
and when the cause is removed, the effect must cease, and 
the removal of the effect, argues the removal of the cause. 
All will admit this. New I say this moral death is the effect 
of a cause. "The wages of sin is death." Carnal Handed- 
ness is the cause here, and its effects is death. But re- 
member that death, the last enemy, shall be destroyed — 
death the effect is destroyed, and when the effect ceases, 
the cause is removed. The effect being removed, neces- 
sarily proves the removal of carnal mindedncss, the cause. 
When death no longer exists, it necessarily follows that 
men will not then be carnally minded. So let us all re- 
joice in hope of this glorious change. 

Again, my friend finds some fault with me about the 
Gospel Kingdom, and here he misrepresented me probably 
not designedly however, but because he sDmetimes forgets 
or does not hear well. 1 said the term mountain was us- 
ed as a figure to denote the Gospel Kingdom, and that those 
provisions for the feast were the provisions of divine grace 



'i 



ON UNIVERSALIS!*. 9? 

and mercy. He says the Gospel is not going to extend in* 
to the future world — that preaching and all the Gospel 
privileges that men have, are to be enjoyed only in this 
world. But what is the fact in the case? The God of 
heaven set up this Gospel Kingdom, and Christ is the head 
of it. He received it from his Father. How long is it to 
continue, and how long before Christ shall deliver up the 
Kingdom to God, from whom he received it? Why, "he 
must reign till he hath put all enemies under his feet"— 
till every enemy is subdued and all men are raised in 
glory and honor, and are clothed with incorruption and 
eternal life. Then cometh the end of his reign — the end 
of the Gospel Kingdom. Then he will deliver up the king- 
dom of God the Father, and become himself subject to him 
that put all things under him that God may bj all in all, i. 
e. that throughout the vast universe of mind, God may be 
the reigning power, the living principle, and all souls b© 
moulded into the likeness and image of God. All this is 
to be effected when the Gospel Kingdom is given up. For 
this is the last crowning act of redeeming love, that which 
winds up the administration of God by the agency of Jesus 
Christ. This completes the whole temple and the head 
stone is brought forth with shoutings, crying grace, grace 
unto it. And every man as a lively stone is redeemed 
clothed with glory and power and immortality, and occu- 
pies his place in the building. And this building is the ad- 
miration of the whole universe. All will have there, their 
final home, and all will then unite in singing praises to 
God, as described in Rev. 5th, which our friend noticed 
last evening, up to the last four verses, which I quoted, 
and left there, and slated the chapter had reference to 
scenes in this world. But I will notice it again, and you 
will see what reference it has. The Revelator tells us 
he was in the spirit on the Lord's day, and God revealed to 
him what shojld take place hereafter. The revelator 
was made acquainted With reference to the whole progress 
of the Savior's mission, 9th verse "and they sung a new song 
saying thou art worthy to take the book and to open the 
seals thereof, for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to 
God by thy blood, out of every kindred and tongue, and 



98 A DISCUSSION 

people, and nation and hast made us unto our God kings> 
and priests, and we shall reign on the earth." But this is 
not all. "And I beheld and 1 heard the voice of many an- 
gels round about the throne, and the beasts, and the el- 
ders and the number of them was ten thousand times ten 
thousand, and thousands of thousands, saying with a loud 
voice, worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power 
and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honor, and 
glory, and blesing But this is not all yet, now mark, 
what is said farther, "and every creature which is in hea- 
ven, and on earth, and under the earth, and such as are in 
the sea, and all that are in them heard I saying, blessing 
and honor, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth 
upon the throne, and unto the Lamb forever and ever." 

Now my friends it is impossible to restrict this language* 
and I told you we had Professor Stewart's authority for 
saying if this does not include the whole intelligent creation, 
then no language can include the whole; and for proof 
that all will unite in heaven in praising God, as here des- 
ei ibed, I cannot ask for stronger testimony than this I have 
already presented to you. — [Time expired. 

f MR. POWER'S ELEVENTH REPLY.] 

Gentlemen Moderators, and the Audience— The first 
item I shall attend to, is to correct an erroneous impres- 
sion under which my worthy opponent appears to be la- 
boring. He has charged me several times with being 
hypocritical, of laboring under conviction of the truth of 
his position, and had not moral honesty enough to confess 
it. Now to relieve his mind on this point, I will say that 
so far from being convinced of the truth of Universalism, 
every discussion I hold, only more fully convinces me of 
the great and dangerous errors of the system. One thing 
that strengthens this belief, is the writhing of my Univer- 
salist friends whenever I attempt to present the system in 
its true character. When I take hold of its real infideli- 
ty , and show that it fosters in its heart all the forms of the 
worst infidelity, they are all thrown into a panic. They 
feel that they are driven into a corner, and would almost 



ON UNIVERSALIS*!. 00 

as soon be brought to judgment, as to "see their real sys- 
tem thus brought out. Now, if they were convinced of 
the truth of their system, they would ilove to see it fully 
exhibited to the public. Hence so far from being convict- 
ed of its trutlf, I always feel that I am doing my Master's 
work, in divesting this system of its covering, and show- 
ing its dangerous errors. 

And I announce this to the gentleman, that he may 
spend no more time in so useless a manner. For if I 
were going into the eternal world today, and had my 
family around my dying bed, the last warning I would 
give my children would be — shun Universalism, as the 
worst form of infidelity in God's universe. 

Again: if I were the hypocrite that he charges me to 
be, why, I am now in hell. But his system puts the key 
of heaven and hell into the hand of the sinner, and he 
can leave the latter and go to heaven just when he pleases. 
It is at my option, whether I stay in this hell or go to 
heaven. And again, if I were all the corrupt character 
he has represented me to be, according to his system, I 
am going to heaven just as fast and surely as if I were as 
holy as John or Paul. So the gentleman need give him- 
self no more trouble about my hypocrisy. 

In regard to the second item we remark, not with a view 
to excite a smile, the old adage was forced upon my mind, 
that/ 4 a drowning man will catch at straws." For though 
Mr. D. had not the moral courage yesterday, to lay him- 
self under obligation to answer any question directly, yet 
he has put questions to me to be answered directly, and I 
have answered. And he thought he had found a straw 
and caught it, and proposed that the discussion should 
close. He is welcome to all the capital he can make of 
this. All his supposed advantage arises from not under- 
standing me. My answer was, that neither in this, nor 
in the future world, had the body separate and apart from 
the soul, a particle of moral purity or holiness. Now I 
ask him to look at this distinctly, and see if he dare con* 
trovert the point. Will any one assert that the body, 
separate from the soul, has a moral character of any 
kind? Moral character is inseparably connected with 



100 A DISCUSSION 

mind. The body in this, or in the future world, has no 
intelligence, and must be destitute of moral character. 

This being the fact, then all the moral character the 
body has in this or in the future world, is relative. By 
itself, the body can have no moral purity^or impurity. 
If the body is connected with a corrupt soul, in a relative 
sense, we may say the body is impure, whether in this 
world or in the future world. So if it be connected with 
a pure spirit, we may speak of it as being pure in this re- 
lative sense. Let the body be immortal in the resurrec- 
tion, and indestructible, not subject to corruption or decay, 
or dissolution, then it receives its relative character from 
the soul, and eternally keeps the same character, whether 
holy or unholy. Hence, we refer you to the declaration 
of the Savior, that in the resurrection they that have 
done good come forth to the resurrection of life, and those 
that have done evil to the resurrection of damnation-— 
the body receiving its relative character from the char- 
acter of the soul. Now let the gentleman make all the 
capital he can out of the answer I gave to his questions. 
He maintained that the body, when raised from the dead, 
is pure and holy. We assert that the body, separate from 
the soul, has no moral character or intelligence at all. 

Mr. D. animadverted on the subject of the kingdom 
again, and charged me with not taking down his remarks 
correctly. This charge was unfounded. He did repre- 
sent it as the mountain of God's holiness, and then he 
changed it to the Gospel kingdom. He then undertook to 
show that this kingdom continued till Christ delivered up 
all to his Father, at the final consummation of all things. 
Put this did not get over the difficulty of carrying the 
Gospel beyond this life. 

What belongs to the Gospel kingdom? The preaching 
of the Gospel of course. Then are ministers to go forth 
in the future world, and proclaim salvation to sinners? 
The system that would maintain this, might be an object 
of contempt, but not worthy an argument to show its ab- 
surdity. 

Mr. D.'s old stereotyped point was brought up once 
more — that the resurrection had reference to the moral 



ON UNIVERSALISM. 101 

condition of men. But in regard to this argument of the 
resurrection, I have only to remind him of the point he 
has so often shunned. For, until he removes this 
difficulty, whatever turn he may give the argument, it will 
not avail him anything. For if he applies the doctrine 
of the resurrection to the soul, he must deny its immor- 
tality. There is no possibility of getting around this. 
If he says this mortal must put on immortality, includes 
the soul, the soul must be mortal. But if he takes this 
ground, that the soul is mortal, he must contradict his for- 
mer position. We showed you that the system is bleed- 
ing at this point; and unless he takes the position of the 
mortality of the soul, it must bleed and die. But if he 
does take this ground, we are prepared to show that death 
awaits it there. 

He charges me with misstating his views respecting the 
character of Jesus Christ, and then defines his true posi- 
tion. It is this : the resurrection will be effected by the 
mighty power of God, by the agency of Jesus Christ; 
and this power is delegated by God to Christ in this work. 
[Mr. Doolittle accepted this as a correct statement of his 
views, though including a part of two statements.] Here 
he virtually abandons his former position relative to the 
constitutional Adam and the constitutional Christ. But I 
will not call him back, for T gave him liberty to change 
his position if he chose. But his second ground is more 
hopeless for him than the first. For I have shown, that 
his first position is diametrically opposed to the Scriptures, 
and must be false. Now he endorses the fact, and takes 
another position more palpably in opposition to the Bible, 
as I shall show. He says all moral stains of every kind 
will be wiped away by the resurrection. I have only to 
cite a declaration or two from the Word of God, to show 
that the gentleman and the Bible are at direct issue. "By 
grace are ye saved through faith." " Except a man be 
born of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of 
God." Now, says Mr. D. it is not by grace through faith 
that we are saved, but by the omnipotent power of God, 
delegated to Christ, and put forth in the resurrection, that 
all are saved. Here then you see his system is directly 



102 A DISCUSSION 

opposed to the whole plan of salvation, as revealed in the 
Bible. 

Again: According to the Bible, Christ is the agent in 
raising the dead. This he admits. But unfortunately 
for his system, according to my friend, Christ has to raise 
the dead by a delegated power. The gentleman uses the 
term delegated, and he cannot change his position with- 
out discarding his whole argument. So Christ is only an. 
agent in raising the dead. Now it is clear to a demon- 
stration, that nothing short of omnipotent power can effect 
the resurrection of the dead. But Jesus Christ, accord- 
ing to Universalism, does not possess absolute, omnipo- 
tent power; then, of course, he must receive this power 
from another source, or he cannot accomplish the resur- 
rection of the dead. But it is absolutely impossible, for 
one being to delegate to another absolute omnipotence, 
and still possess it himself. But as nothing short of om- 
nipotent power can effect the resurrection of the dead? 
and as Christ raises the dead by delegated power, he must 
receive this omnipotence from God; and hence, God must 
change from omnipotence to impotence, and be destitute 
of power. So we are involved by the system in absolute 
Atheism ! So you see the gentleman to avoid one difficul- 
ty, has plunged himself into a much greater one. 

Again: " Have the angels impure souls V\ asks the gen«* 
tleman. I have before stated, on this point, that the ques- 
tion of moral character was not started by the Sadducees. 
But in answer to their materialism, Christ told them, that 
in the resurrection they neither married nor were given 
in marriage, but were equal to the angels; but moral char- 
acter was not spoken of. 

According to Mr. D.'s interpretation, being children of 
God in any sense, would be to possess moral purity. To 
show this is not the case, I quote Is. i. 2 : "Hear O heavens; 
and give ear O earth, for the Lord hath spoken; I have 
nourished and brought up children and they have rebelled 
against me." Here are persons recognized as the chil- 
dren of God, but are they represented as pure or holy on 
that ground 1 No. So in the case referred to, being 
children of God does not imply that they were morally 






OK "UNIVERSALIS*!. 103 

•pure or holy ; and this was not what the Savior Was 
speaking of at the time. — [Time expired. 

[mr. doolittle's twelveth speech.] 

1 feci most deeply to sympathise with our friend, since 
he has had to wield so much power as he did the last time 
up. But it is owing to the badness of the cause he has to 
maintain. The ingenuity he manifested, to avoid the force 
of my argument, reminds me of a certain sign, "All kinds 
of twisting and turning done here." I think it would be 
well for him to carry this sign about with him ; for he has 
manifested so much of a disposition to work at such busi- 
ness, that it would be a very appropriate sign for him. 
But all of his twisting and turning does not get him out 
of the difficulty. As I said before, many men by their in- 
genuity, can prove much as they suppose from the Bible ; 
but one thing never can be proved, that is — the endless 
misery of any portion of the human race. 

Our friend says he is determined to take hold of the vi- 
tal parts of our system — to make' a deadly thrust. Well, 
if the vital parts are vulnerable, and susceptible of de- 
struction, I am willing he should attack and destroy the 
whole. He says we fear this as w r e would the judgment — 
as though all our hopes were going to be wrecked, and all 
our prospects cut off through his agency. But I find my 
hand very steady in noting down his argument, I have no 
sense of fear or trembling. 

[Here Mr. Dcolittle referred again to the answer Mr. 
Power gave to his question, and stated the answer to be, 
that a polluted soul would not be united to a pure body ; 
evidently having misunderstood the answer. He was so 
confident, however, of being right, that when corrected by 
his opponent, he thought it was only an effort to back off 
from the difficulty. Considerable time was taken up in 
settling the point, which being referred to the Judges, was 
decided in favor of Mr. Power. The time being so far 
-spent, the remainder of the speech was adjourned till af- 
ternoon; at which time, Mr. Doolittle spenfa few minutes 
in stating again that he was sure of being right, &c. and 
proceeded with his speech/'] 



104 a Discussion 

We feel under obligation to call your attention once 
more briefly to the resurrection state, to the condition of 
all men in a state of immortal existence. The question 
under discussion remember has reference to the condition 
of man in a state of immortality — it has reference t) the 
condition of the entire human race, every moral being and 
hence I have laid hold of the powerful and conclusive ar- 
gument of the Apostle as laid down in 1 Cor. xvth. chap, 
relative to the condition of all men in the immortal state 
of existence, in proof of the affirmative of the question, to 
prove that all will be holy and happy in that state. And 
the reason why I have come to the conclusion that all 
will be holy and happy there, is from the fact that the 
Apostle as we have shown, proves conclusively the great 
end of the Gospel — that all men by the power of God ? 
through the agency of Jesus Christ the redeemer of man 
kind, the Savior of the world, will be raised to an immor- 
tal state of existence — clothed with power and glory, and 
honor, and placed on an equality,as the Savior has said, 
with the angels which will make them equal to the angels 
in their moral condition — constitute them children of God, 
as said the Savior, '-being children of the resurrection," 
and they shall not be subject to death any more. 

Now mark, our friend tells us that this change effects 
only the body, and does not make the soul any better or 
purer. He admits that soul and body are united in the 
resurrection. If this be so, then when the Savior says 
"in the resurrection, rhey shall be equal to the angels,'* 
he must include the soul as well as the body. It would 
make nonsense for him to say their bodies shall be equal 
to the angels. And how could he say a polluted, sinful 
soul was equal to the angels, or a polluted soul united with 
a pure body, was equal to an angels ? To say that per- 
sons are raised in honor, and power, and glory, and are 
equal to the angels and become the children of God, does 
not this imply a connection of soul and body, and a moral 
relation too? Does the mere body without a soul consti- 
tute a child of God? Soul and body cannot be separated 
in this connection. Now to be raised in honor, glory, and 
incorruption, and become equal to the angels, and be the 



ON UNIVEIISALISM. IOj 

children of God, is the condition of all men in an immortal 
state of existence, and if this fact does not sustain the affir- 
mative of the question, there is no argument that can be 
adduced to sustain any position. But strange to relate our 
friend here still persists in trying to fasten the conviction 
that this change only effects the physical constitution, and 
has nothing to do with the moral state of the soul. Now 
to show you that he is mistaken and that I am right, hear 
what Paul says. 4; So when this corruptible shall have 
put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on im- 
mortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that 
is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death 
where is thy sting? O grave where is thy victory f" What 
is it that exclaims this, is it a mere lump of matter, a 
mere body and not the soul that makes this exclamation? 
Mark my friend holds that this change only affects the body 
What a body that must be, that without a soul makes 
such an exclamation! Nonsense! It is the redeemed soul 
that makes this exclamation. And what a glorious vic- 
tory and salvation this will be. We shall all then exclaim 
in triumph. O death where is thy sting? O grave where 
is thy victory? On what ground is this victory to be 
predicated? It is to be proclaimed on the ground that the 
soul is redeemed from the bondage of sin and corruption 
into the glorious liberty of the children of God, and is be- 
come equal to the angels. This certainly is a change 
that effects the soul. What more does any one want than 
this? I want no more. To be made equal to the angels, 
and shout the praises of God around his throne i3 all I 
ask or desire, and this is what is attained by all in 
the resurrection. 

Again, here is another argument which shows that this 
change affects all men. This I said was a crowning work 
that winds up the great scheme of redemption, and so 
thought Paul. "Then" he says "cometh the end. " What 
endf The end of Christ's administration here, when he 
shall see of the travail of his soul and be satisfied. When 
the last wandering prodigal shall come home to his father's 
house. Then he shall deliver up the Kingdom to his 
Father. Now what constitutes the Kingdom which tho 

.9* 



108 A DISCUSSION 






Son shall deliver up to the Father? Does it consist of a 
great mass of physical bodies without any souls ? By 
no means. But this is the ludicrous position which our 
friend takes. 

Again: Christ must reign till he hath put all enemies 
under his feet, what does this mean, till he hath put down 
all the bodies. No, putting all enemies under his feet is sy- 
nominous with the destruction of all his foes. The last 
enemy shall be destroyed — it means the destruction or anni- 
hilation of every thing evil to man, or offensive to God. 

The Apostle informs us in Hebrews ii. 14 that Christ 
will destroy him that hath the power of death i. e. the Dev- 
il, "He that committelh sin" says John "is of the Devil, 
for the Devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose 
the Son of God was manifest, that he might destroy the 
works of the Devil. " 

This destruction then, is a destruction that takes away 
all that offends, every thing that pollutes the soul, or des- 
troys the power of the soul. It includes all physical suf- 
fering and moral evil. 

It would seem that Paul meant to mako out an argu- 
ment, on this point as clear as light, and as definite as lan- 
guage could make it. But this light has not reached El- 
der Power yet. Still,! know it will reach him sooner or 
later. Paul, lest we might suppose an enemy of some kind 
would be left, adds. -'The last enemy shall be destroyed, 
death. [Time expired. 

[mr. power's twefth RErLY.] 

Gentlemen Mcderators, and the Audience — A few gene- 
ral remarks on our friend's last speech, both before and 
since adjournment, and then we proceed. 

First, his remark in reference to the mechanic's sign ; 
I leave the decision to this intelligent audience, at whose 
door this sign stands out in bold relief. Let them decide. 
One remark on the disputed point. In this case I ask no 
favor. I claim only what is a universally conceded prin- 
ciple — that a speaker has a right to explain what he has 
said in debate. And this is the first instance that I hare 



ON USIVEItSALISM. 107 

known, of an explanation being controverted or rejected. 

But now to his last speech. It is but a repetition of 
what he has told us in part or in whole, in every speech 
but the first since the commencement. But he has stated 
distinctly, if the xvth Chap, of 1st Cor. docs not sustain 
his system, there is no other evidence that can. But he 
enquires whether a mass of physical bodies could exclaim, 
O death, where is thy sting! O grave, where is thy vic- 
tory ! On this supposed new light I have only to remark, 
that the Apostle has not stated that this will be the lan- 
guage of all in the resurrection sta 4 e. This is the lan- 
guage Paul uses in view of the promise of God ; and adds, 
thanks be to God whogiveth us [himself and his brethren] 
the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. So the diffi- 
culty he has started here, is all imaginary. 

Again, in regard to the cluldren of Gcd and the An- 
gels, a word; for 1 do not mean to repeat all my argument 
again. We showed that an argument is absolutely false 
and delusive, that brings more into the conclusion, than is 
contained in the premises. And I called upon Mr. D., to 
show that the moral condition of the soul, was the subject 
of the enquiry which theSadducees made of the Kedeemer. 
But he has not attempted it ; and if he were to attempt it, 
the letter of the text wou ] d contradict him at the thres- 
hold. For the question was one of relative condition — 
whether the marriage state would be the same in the fu- 
ture world that it is in this. Now while only the relative 
condition of men is spoken of in the premises, it is unpar- 
donable sophism, to bring the moral condition into the con- 
clusion. Then all that can save his argument, is to as- 
sume that to be a child of God in any sense, is to be holy 
and happy. But we quoted from the 1st of Isaiah, and 
showed you that some, called the children of God, were 
neither holy nor happy. 

Again: the difficulty which we introduced — a difficulty 
too, which wholly destroys all his proof from the resurrec- 
tion, in regard to which he says, if it (the resurrection) 
does not prove his point nothing can — has not been remo- 
ved or touched. We say, to avail himself of any proof 
here, he must take the ground that the soul is mortal, 



108 A DISCUSSION 

The Word says, " this mortal must put on immortality." 
And if it means this mortal soul must put on immortality in 
the resurrection, then the soul is mortal. But he has not 
availed himself of the privilege of claiming the mortality 
of the soul, I knew he would not dare to do it. I have 
apprised the congregation of his position here a number of 
times, following up his repetition, and still he has not 
touched this point. And now I challenge him again, (al- 
ways using the term respectfully.) And I would remind 
you, too. of his circumstances; fori am not meeting him 
alone, but a little colony of his ministerial brethren with 
him here, on my right. But I do not complain at all at 
this, for I am willing to meet a ten-acre field of them; 
but I challenge him to look this difficulty in the face. He 
must apply this doctrine of the resurrection to the soul, or 
he must not. If he does not apply it to the soul, then his 
proof falls into utter and hopeless ruin ; and if he does 
apply it to the soul, then he must maintain the mortality 
of the soul. And ii" he takes this ground, then he will 
have the unenviable distinction of this grand achievement 
before this intelligent audience, of placing us all on the 
honorable level with the ox and the ass, perfectly destitute 
of an immortal soul! We challenge the gentleman to 
come up and meet this difficulty. And we would request 
the audience to look at the signs over our doors, and ob- 
serve where the twisting and turning is done. 

Now, gentlemen, with the facts before you — that my 
friend has not adduced one solitary fragment of proof to 
bear on the condition of the soul — that he is in the dilem- 
ma [ have named, I ask you to look farther, and see that 
he has placed the resurrection of the body in the hands of 
a finite being— and if he raises the body it must be by fin- 
ite power — or if the difficulty is removed, God the Father 
must delegate his omnipotence to the Son, and then he must 
cease to be Almighty, and consequently no longer be God. 
So you see that this system, instead of being a system of 
universal salvation, is a. system that places the final condi- 
tion of both soul and body in the hands of finite weakness, 
and leaves all without hope and without God in the world. 
Now., as disproof of this unscriptural system, I bring up 



ON UNIVERSALIS*!. 109 

the points already specified — that man's future and end- 
less condition is connected with a moral change of the soul 
in this world. My opponent maintains that the moral 
change takes place after death, in the resurrection. I de- 
manded the proof. But he has not found a text as proof, 
except this one about mortality putting on immortality ; 
which, if applied to the soul, places all men on a level with 
the animal creation: while, 1 have shown you, from the 
Bible, that God has connected man's future destiny with a 
moral change, which is to be wrought on the soul in this 
life. 

The world and the history of our race, are full of evi- 
dence, that men have lived in the very worst of crimes, and 
have died in the act of blasphemy-— that, some in the very 
act of maliciously taking the life of their fellow, have 
themselves fallen by the assassin's hand, and gone direct- 
ly into eternity with all their crimes, with their souls 
stained with every moral pollution. And the gentleman 
can find no proof of their salvation only from the xvth of 
1 Cor. ; and to apply that to their case, he must deny the 
immortality of the soul, contradict the universal convic- 
tion of man, and the solemn declaration of God. As coun- 
ter proof, we have adduced a number of scriptures, to show 
that God has connected man's final destiny with faith and 
obedience in this life. And we now proceed to quote ad- 
ditional proof of this point: 1 Cor. xvi. 22, " If any man 
love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema, Ma- 
ranatha." Here is a moral quality of soul that is requir- 
ed of man by his Maker, as a condition of Divine accep- 
tance, and without which he rests under the curse of God, 
both in time and in eternity. 

We have shown that this moral change is inseparably 
connected with faith in this world, and that faith is impos- 
sible in the future world, and have called on our friend 
to controvert it ; he has not done it. In the future world 
all is knowledge and sight, and not belief. 

Again: we quote John xiv. 23: " Jesus answered and said 
unto him, if a man love me, he will keep my words : and 
my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and 
make our abode with him." Here it is plain that the proof 



110 A DISCUSSION 

that we love God and have his favor, is, that we keep His 
words, that we repent and believe on Him and keep His 
commandments. Hence, every individual that neglects 
the moral precepts of the Gospel, gives proof that he loves 
toot the Lord Jesus, and that he is living under the moral 
curse of God, and that passing out of this state of being 
with this character, there is no salvation for him. But to 
show that this moral character has reference to man's fu- 
ture destiny, see 1 John, iv. 16, 17 : "And we have known 
and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love : 
and he that dwelleth in love, dwelleth in God, and God in 
him. Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have 
boldness in the day of judgment : because as he is, so are 
we in this world." This teaches that a man, to have the 
favor of God in the future world, at the judgment, must 
have his favor first in this world* 

Again: in support of the position that God requires holi- 
ness of heart and life in this world, with special reference 
to man's future and final condition, we refer to the sayings 
of our Savior in Matt. v. ; we will take only the 8th verse, 
"Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God." 
And in connection, take what Paul .says in Heb. xii. 14, 
" Follow peace with all men, and holiness without which 
no man shall "see the Lord." Holiness is the result of 
faith. Here God has required of men the fulfillment of 
certain conditions, having direct reference to their future 
destiny in the coming world. 

Now the position of the gentleman is, that God releases 
man from all moral obligation here, in reference to his fu- 
ture condition, and places his future salvation alone on the 
declaration— "This mortal must put on immortality." He 
passes over man's relation in this life, all his obligations to 
his Maker during his stay on earth, and tells men, I mean 
his system tells men, if you will believe in this world that 
all mankind will finally and unconditionally be saved, if 
you will turn Universalist here, you will be quite happy 
in believing, but if you live in unbelief you will be just 
as sure of heaven ; it is a matter perfectly optional with 
you; God has not connected your future happiness with 
your moral character in this world : — while, the Bible 



ON UNIVERSALIS!*. Ill 

teaches, that the wrath of God abideth on him that con- 
tinued! in unbelief in this world; and if he dies in this 
state, God's wrath will eternally abide on him. This is 
the true position on this point. But the system I oppose, 
because it is opposed to the Bible, says you need not re- 
form, you need not pray, you need not abandon your pro- 
fanity, you are just as sure of going to heaven in all your 
crimes as if you w 7 ere already there. If I misrepresent 
the system, I challenge the gentleman to correct me. I 
challenge his brethren in the ministry, and the world, to 
deny, that the system says a man may live in unbelief, in 
purjury, in robbing, in murder, and if he is then tired of 
this Universalists hell, he may turn the key of heaven he 
has in his own hands, just cut his throat, and he is in hea- 
ven. 1 challenge any one to deny this if he dare. [Mr. 
Loring, a Universalist preacher, accepted the challenge.] 
The gentleman has accepted the challenge, laying him- 
self under obligation to show, that men may be wicked 
enough in this life to keep them out of heaven in the fu- 
ture world. 1 thank the gentleman for it; and hope he 
will show it, for my work will then be done. For he will 
dig the grave of Universalism, and I will stay another 
week to preach its funeral sermon. — [ Time expired, , 

[MR. DOOLITTLE'S THIRTEENTH SPEECH.] 

I must admit friends that for onee the benefit of a good 
dinner and the refreshment from rest during adjournment, 
has had considerable effect on our friend Power, and has 
aroused up considerable physical energy; if not mental. 
But unfortunately it has not strengthened his argument 
any, as he had referred to my being so muchfrefreshed by 
my dinner, I was about to invite him to dine with me, but 
I think he has fared pretty well from his energy exhibit- 
ed in his last speech. But let us review the argument and 
see if it has any weight. 

He has not forgotten to tell you that this change is con- 
fined exclusively to the body and does not effect the soul. 
I shall not dwell on this much, but repeat to show that it 
is something that effects the soul, and places it beyond 



112 A DISCUSSION 






the reach of sin and misery and renders it holy and hap- 
py. Our friend says that Paul exclaims, O death where 
is thy sting? O grave where is thy victory? having ref- 
erence to himsolf and his brethren. Well if Paul ex- 
claimed victory, in triumph with reference to himself and 
his brethren, did he exclaim on the ground that this change 
was to effect only the body, or because it included the soul 
likewise? Was it not for a victory over death and sin too? 
that by this glorious event, the sting of death would be ta- 
ken away. Hence* he could say not only with reference 
to himself, but with reference to his friends as sharers in 
this resurrection, O death where is thy sting ? O grave 
where is thy victory ? Yes my friends, in this glorious 
event which shall place all men beyond the reach of death, 
and sin, and every evil, all will shout victory through our 
Lord Jesus Christ. 

But on this question our friend thinks he has me in his 
grasp, and if I should plead ever so hard he would not 
relinquish his hold. He says that it is the body that 
puts on immortality and that this will not effect the 
condition of the soul at all. But mark, Paul says "it is 
sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption, it is sown 
in dishonor, it is raised in glory, it is sown in weakness, it 
is raised in power, it is sown a natural body, it is raised 
a spiritual body — as we have borne the image of the 
earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly." 
What constitutes the image of the heavenly? Why, spir- 
itually being made equal to the angels, not subject to 
death any more. This constitutes the glorious change 
And when this change is effected, the soul, in connectioi 
with this glorified, pure, incorruptible body, will be holy 
also. For mark, Rom. 8th. "The creature was made sub- 
ject to vanity not willingly, but by reason of him who hath 
subjected the same in hope." In hope of what? of deliver 
ance from this vanity. "For the whole creation groan 
eth" what is the cause of this? they were subject to 
pain and suffering. But not subjected in eternal despair, 
but in hope of final deliverance. "Because the creature 
itself, also, shall be delivered from the bondage of corrup- 
tion into.' 9 What? is it a deliverance that effects the 



; 



ON UNIVERSALIS!*. 1 13 

body only? more, u into the glorious liberty of the chil- 
dren of God." Now this is all the deliverance I ask, 
here is an end of all pain and suffering. As farther 
proof that this change does embrace both soul and body, 
let me cite you to what Faul says 2 Cor. v. 1-3. "For we 
know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were 
dissolved, we have a building of God, a house not made 
with hands, eternal in the heavens, for in this we groan 
earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house 
which is from heaven: if so being clothed we shall not be 
found naked." 

The soul and the body are inseparably connected in this 
world. There is something to be clothed when this tab- 
ernacle is dissolved. It is to be clothed in the likeness of 
Christ, to put on immortality and incorruption, and this 
clothing or house from heaven, will encircle thespirit,the 
soul. What does this "tabernacle" mean? It means our 
earthly nature or constitution — the Ada^iienature. When 
this is put off, and the likeness of Christ put on, then the 
groaning has[an end, and suffering has an end, Then shall 
be brought to pass the saying, repeatedly quoted, "Death 
is swallowed up in victory," Then the veil and covering 
shall be destroyed from off all people, then God shall wipe 
away the tears from off all faces— then shall be destroyed 
as Paul says., the last enemy, Death. Now I hope our 
friend here will not continue to tell you that this is a 
change that does not effect the soul or moral condition. 

Again: we had to listen to the rehearsal of some state- 
ments made yesterday, all designed to work on your feel- 
ings and prejudices, making out that we are infidels in dis- 
guise, the worst kind of infidels. He has come here to 
expose our system, and he has cried infidelity. He tells 
you we pass over man's relation in this life. He tells you 
that our faith releases you from all obligation to discharge 
the duties of citizens and of Christians — that it releases,, 
men from all obligation whatever. Now, there is not an 
intelligent individual here, but what knows this charge is. 
slanderous and false. And we must believe that our friend 
is ignorant of the truth in this matter or else he willfully 
misrepresents us. I would beseech all my friends to> put 

10 



1 14 A DISCUSSION 



the best construction on his motives, and not suppose he 
would come forth here boldly, and willfully misrepresent 
us. 1 told you yesterday that we hold, and that our system 
holds, that men are under obligation to do right in all re- 
spects in this life. We believe that holy and happy con- 
sequences attend obedience to God in this world, we be- 
lieve in the reformation and improvement of society, and 
we enforce such things as much as our friend does. We 
believe that sin and misery are inseparably connected, 
that all who sin suffer the consequence of it, to the full ex- 
tent of its desert. Now you all know that in controver- 
sy it is customary for one side to resort to such kind 
of arguments as our friend has used. "I am right and 
you are wrong, your system is calculated to open the 
floodgates of iniquity and deluge the world with moral 
pollution." This I say is common, but what does it amount 
to ? Nothing at all is gained by it. Why, I could turn 
around and bring^s many charges against my friend's 
system as he can against ours, but this would not amount 
to anything as an argument, mere assertion without proof 
avails nothing. Again, the gentleman says he has shown 
us that men die in unbelief, and that faith is impossible in- 
the future world, i. e. there can be no change after this 
life. All I have to'say on this point is, if no change passes 
on men for the better after this life, then their ease is 
hopeless, and we may all lie down in despair. For the 
best Christians that ever lived, have mourned over their 
imperfections to the last. And when Paul exclaimed, "O 
wretched man that I am, who shall deliver me from the 
body of this death." Did he expect to be delivered by his 
own good works ? No. "I thank God through Jesus 
Christ our Lord,' 9 is his language. He found that when 
he would do good, evil was present with him, and that for 
all he could do, he was a wretched man — Jesus Christ 
alone could deliver him and not his good works. And 
this warfare in the mind of Paul, was kept up till the close 
of his course on earth. At another time later in life he 
says, "I keep my body under and bring it into subjection, 
lest that by any means, when I have preached to others 
I myself should be a cast away." W 7 ell would it be if all 



ON UNIVERSALIS^. 115 

would be as careful as Paul was lest they should be cast 
aways. Paul got the victory, he remained steadfast to 
the end. But all have not been so fortunate. Many, even 
good preachers, have fallen away — as my friend is note- 
ing down, and will tell you, they were eternally cast away, 
I must forestall him here — says Paul. "This is a faith- 
ful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus 
came into the world to save sinners of whom I am chief." 
Though men may backslide ever so far, they have not 
gone so far that the arm of Jehovah cannot reach them, 
nor become so vile that his redeeming grace cannot save 
them. But our friend says, that those who die in unbelief, 
will be miserable forever, and why ? because he takes the 
promise of deliverance, into the glorious liberty of the 
children of God, and confines it entirely to the body. He 
says we cannot have faith in the future world. But why 
not have faith there ? What do we understand by faith ? 
it is used to mean confidence in God. When we get 
home to heaven, shall we have no confidence in God, no 
confidence in the stability of his throne ? I admit 
that in respect to the promises of God, they will all have 
their fulfillment, but still we may thus have confidence in 
God for the continuation of his power and blessings upon 
us. 

Some passages of scripture 1 have not noticed at this 
time, but will in my next speech, [Time expired. 

[mr. power's thirteenth reply.] 

Gentlemen Judges and the Audience: — I shall not occupy 
your time with desultory matters which have no direct 
bearing on the points of issue. A few passing remarks on 
the gentleman's position. Paul, according to his account, 
was a very unskillful >Universalist preacher. It was nec- 
essary for him to live holy and keep his body under lest 
he should be a cast away. Cast away from what? from 
heaven ! By no means, from what then? 

Again the gentleman concludes, that if his system is un- 
sound, I must be lost. If this were a fact that I should be 
lost, it would be no proof against the system I maintain. 



116 A DISCUSSION 

On this subject I have no fears, I rest my faith on the 
"rock of ages." 

Christians have the consolation to know that in all 
their weakness, they have an advocate with the father, 
that their past sins are pardoned by faith in Jesus Christ, 
and the love of God shed abroad in their hearts. 
They have no fears in this world, and have a joyful 
hope for the future. Paul taught this doctrine to the Phil- 
ippians. He says "1 press toward the mark for the prize 
of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. Let us there- 
for as many as be perfect be thus minded" — for they were 
now perfected in the love of God and rejoicing in hope of 
eternal glory. 

I have now but a remark to make on the gentleman's 
twelfth edition of this argument. His course reminds me 
forcibly of an incident that occurred when 1 had charge of 
the Wyandott Mission. A preacher who had never preach- 
ed before by an interpreter, became very much embar- 
rassed and to make his subject simple and plain, as he sup- 
posed, he used much repetition. He observed that the in- 
terpreter sometimes did not employ near so much time in 
speaking as he did, but only said a few words and waited 
for the preacher to proceed. After sermon, he enquired of 
the interpreter what this meant. "Why" says he, "I did 
not give them the repetition, but merely remarked about 
it — just as before." So all I have to do in noteing down the 
gentleman's argument in each successive speech is to write 
'•just as before." 

We called upon Mr. D., to touch the difficulty about the 
mortality of the soul. He came near to it, and quoted "it 
is sown in weakness, it is raised in power &c." Where 
sown? In the grave. What sown? Now we repeat, if 
he applies this to the soul, he places man on a level with the 
ox and the ass. 

It is plain he wishes to get out of his present difficulties 
and get into another channel, if he can do it without obser- 
vation. He has staked his argument on the resurrection, 
effected by a finite power. But he begins to see his diffi- 
culties, and now he wants to double the cape and take 
another channel. Instead of the body being raised as de- 



OK UNIVERSAL1SM. 117 

scribed in 1 Cor. xv, he wants to make out that there is a 
house in heaven, and we shall be clothed upon with that 
house and that it will encircle the soul and be the resur- 
rection body. So instead of going into the future world with 
a resurrection body, we shall be clothed around with this 
heavenly house. 

Now here is a difficulty for him, I will show you by 
testimony that is indisputable that this is not a house, but 
a real body, that is to be raised and refined, and immortal- 
ized by the divine hand. Philip, iii. 20, 21. "For our con- 
versation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the 
Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ: who shall change our vile 
body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, 
according to the working whereby he is able even to sub- 
due all things unto himself." 

You will mark here that it is our vile body, that is to 
be changed and fashioned like unto his glorious body, in 
the future world. 

Well he brought again the eighth of Romans. And 
like the Indian interpreter, I wrote, "just as before." 

You will recollect that he staked the whole change on 
the resurrection, and took the ground that the agent in this 
was a finite power, and to effect the whole work, the soul 
must be mortal. But we have shown that the moral 
change takes place in this world, sanctifying the soul and 
fitting it for heaven, and that if men here reject God's plan 
of being prepared for heaven, they shall be deprived of his 
favor and love through all eternity. 

In reference to the liberty of the children of God spoken 
of in Romans. Paul makes it plain that this is enjoyed in 
this world. For he says, "as many as are led by the spir- 
it of God, they are the sons, or children, of God. For ye 
have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear, but 
ye have received the spirit of adoption, whereby^we cry, 
Abba Father. The spirit also beareth witness with our 
spirit, that we are the children of God." What language 
can make it plainer that we become the children of God in 
this life? 

I wish to meet the gentleman's charge of slander. I 
never entered a campaign without expecting to be shot at, 

10* 



118 



A DISCUSSION 



and I find that under all these personalities severe a? they 
are, my feelings are "calm as summer evenings be. ,r 
And I beg of the congregation not to think hard of Mr. D. t 
for his charges, for it is the corruption of his system that 
drives him to such a course, and it is against his system 
that I direct my charges, I charge Universalism with main- 
taining directly in opposition to the proof 1 have adduced, 
that God does not require obedience of man or has not con- 
nected faith, love and holiness in this life with man's eter- 
nal destiny. And for this, the gentleman says I am guilty 
of falsehood and slander, and he says his system does main- 
tain that men are under obligations to discharge all theii? 
duties to God and man. But I now bring up the point 
most definitely, that the system does maintain that God has 
laid no manor woman of our race, under obligations to be- 
lieve, love, or obey him as a condition of final salvation in 
heaven, I lay this charge on the table before the gentle- 
man and challenge him to deny it. I lay it before his breth- 
ren in the ministry and challenge them to deny it. The 
moment they take the ground that God lays any individ- 
ual under obligations to perform any duty, and that he 
cannot be saved in heaven, if he fails to perform this du- 
ty, then they take the ground that their whole system is 
false from beginning to end. 

Now, that there may be no misunderstanding on this 
subject, we repeat, that the system does maintain that men 
are under no obligations to believe in God, or to discharge 
any duties either to God or man, as conditions or means of 
salvation in heaven, but only as a condition of being peace- 
ful and happy in this life. Till the gentleman denies this, 
and brings the proof, he only renders himself ludicrous by 
his charges against us of slander. The system holds that 
men are under obligation to love and obey God and do good 
to their fellow men, but only for their own good in this 
world. But what if a man should see fit to disbelieve, and 
hate God, and injure his fellow men, would this shut him 
out of heaven? If he should see fit to live in all manner 
of crime and blasphemy possible, hang himself and go into 
eternity a self murderer, would this keep him out of heav- 
en for a moment ? If so, then Universalism is the great- 



ON UNIVERS ALISM. 1 19 

est, the most deceptive, and ruinous imposition that ever 
cursed the world. We have shown you under four dis- 
tinct heads, that God requires duties at the hands of men 
in this life, as conditions and means of happiness in eterni- 
ty, 1. We have shown that he that believeih shall have 
eternal life, and that he that believeth not shall be damned. 
When we pass beyond this life, faith is absolutely im- 
possible. The gentleman tried to avoid this difficulty by 
making faith only an abstract principle, but it was only 
anenvasion. 2. We have shown you that those who are 
corrupt have no part in the eternal life with God and 
Christ. 3. We have shown you that God requires men 
to love him in this world, and that this love is insepa- 
rably connected with faith. 4. We have shown you 
that without holiness no man shall see the Lord. Again 
we have seen that the conditions as laid down in the viiith 
of Rom. require a moral change in this life to fit men for 
heaven. "The spirit itself beareth witness with our 
spirit that we are the children of God." 

Here you seethe system is diametrically opposed to the 
teachings of the Bible. It places the whole change in the 
resurrection power, and that power is to be exerted by fi- 
nite hands. 

Now gentleman, not one of the texts used to establish 
the points I have stated, has he attempted fairly to meet. 
I propose now to show that this system not only stands di- 
ametrically opposed to God's word, but that it holds out the 
highest reward for the most glaring crime the Bible for- 
bids. Universalism maintains that it is absolutely impos- 
sible for men to commit sin enough in life and in death, to 
keep them out of heaven in a future world, this my oppo- 
f nent dare not deny, for the very moment he concedes that 
any man may by any possibility commit crimes that will 
keep him out of heaven, he concedes what annihilates his 
system. In proof, David says in the 55th Ps. that "bloody 
and deceitful men shall not live out half their days." Now 
this system says to the bloody and deceitful men, if you 
do not live out half your days, if you will put yourselves 
out of the world, you will be saved in heaven. God for- 
bids murder, but this system says, to the bloody and 



120 A msctrssioK 

deceitful man if you will only cut your throaty you will 
be released from hell and crowned in heaven. 

Now that system which releases men from all obliga- 
tion to do right so far as their final salvation is concerned, 
and then offers them the highest reward in heaven, for the 
commission of the most glaring crime that God forbids in 
this world, is to all intents and purposes, the most mis- 
chievous form of infidelity. But this is Universalism, and 
1 ask the gentleman to deny the charge if he pleases. I 
demand of him to meet the charge specifically, without 
evasion, and he can evade it only at the peril of his own, 
and the reputation of his system. [Time expired. 

[mr. doolittle's fourteenth speech.] 

Perhaps some of you my friends after so much thunder 
and lightning, begin to feel that we must be struck, or 
that something at least must have happened to us. But 
we feel perfectly cool, while our friend is waxing warm, 
I hope he will take a draught of water and try to keep 
cool, for the worst of his trouble is yet to come. 

He tries to make out that our system is a most awful 
system. I^hope your bumps of caution are large and that 
you will all take sufficient care, for the system is an aw- 
ful one, if all he says is true. It releases men from all 
obligation to love God, or in any way to respect the rights 
of their fellow men, or to do any thing that is right 
or commendable, if his assertions are to be taken as mat- 
ters of fact. We are in an astonishing condition, and it 
is passing strange that there should be so many Univer- 
salists in the world, and it is very surprising that so 
many Methodist preachers should have been converted to 
it. We have many whom we respect, that were once in 
the ranks of our friend, that are now advocating the doc- 
trine we profess. 

And we hope that many more will yet be convert- 
ed, and that our friend will be. But is it not surpris- 
ing that if the system has such awful horns, and claws, 
or is such a monster, with cloven feet — if it is such an out- 
rage on heaven, is at war with God, and with all thepria- 



ON UNIVERSALIS!*. 121 

ciples of his government, at war with the whole system of 
Christianity,— is it not strange that some of the most en- 
lightened in'all ages should have believed and preached it, 
and that so large and respectable a portion of the com- 
munity now should hold to it? Now, it may possibly be, 
that our friend is mistaken in what he has said. It may 
not be true. So I beseech of you my friends to cherish 
the idea that possibly our friend may be mistaken. 

But, I do not blame him for the course he has taken, 
for he had nothing better to say. He could not lay hold 
on my arguments on the resurrection, though he says 
I have given him the twelfth edition of it. But I am thank- 
ful I have not to take his ipse dixit for proof. Why 
does he not go to the law and to the testimony to prove 
our theory false, and to sustain his negative on this ques- 
tion. To assail our system with hard sayings, to arouse 
your prejudice, does not prove it false, and it does no 
good. 

The gentleman says that we hold to a system which 
says to the bloody and deceitful man, "Cut your throat, 
and as a reward for so doing you shall have eternal life 
in the future world." Now we deny this altogether. Do 
you believe my friends, that we hold any such thing ? 
If you do you have our sympathy, but I will say we hold 
no such thing. And I might say the charge is false. But 
our friend says we are too personal in this, I will not 
then, say it is false, but simply ask you, do you believe it 
is true ? that we offer eternal life to a man for cutting his 
throat ? Did you ever hear of a Universalist who said 
such a thing, or wrote such a f hing 1 No! Never! Never! 
A man must be morally mad to do it. And yet our friend 
says our system holds such a doctrine — holds out the 
highest reward to the cut throat. If this is our doctrine, 
and our public advocates have been faithful in preaching 
it, why have they not induced at least the good, who are 
in suffering and want, to cut their throats 1 Why is it 
that individuals all over the land are not cutting their 
throats? 

Our friend Power told us he had strong hopes of getting 
to heaven. But if he is not saved on the Universalist 



122 



A DISCUSSION 



plan, he will never be saved. For if he is not saved bv 
the grace of God, there is no other way in which he can 
be saved. I will not say it will be a stretch of Divine 
grace to save him, but if he is saved, as he has sinned a- 
gainst much light, I say he must be saved, if at all, as 
indeed we all must be by the grace of God, and not by 
works. We must be saved by the free unmerited gift of 
God's unpurchased mercy. Why our friend said yester- 
day, ke expected when he got home, to shout grace, for 
the salvation of his soul. He expected his soul to be 
washed in the blood of the. Lamb. Well, this is our faith. 
We believe every soul that is saved, will be washed and 
saved in heaven by the same process— by the renovating 
power of God's grace. But my friends we believe more 
than our friend Power does, and for this he calls us by 
hard names. We believe that the worst of sinners by the 
same process, yea all will be saved, and fitted for the en- 
joyment of the Kingdom of God. Again, he says and he 
thinks it is proof , that idolaters and all liars &c, shall 
not inherit the Kingdom of God. But now, if I am not 
mistaken, the declaration does not stand thus. "No liar 
&c, hath (in the present tense) any part in the Kingdom 
of God. But some will say drunkards will be there* and 
how can this be ? Why they will be purified, as you will 
be purified. Now why did not our friend Power quote 
the scripture, and quote it correctly? And why did he not 
tell us that there shall be such persons as adulterers, and 
whoremongers, and murderers in eternity ? Why did 
he not do this? For the very good reason he could not 
bring any law and testimony to prove it, but on the other 
hand, he knew that I had proved that the crooked ways 
shall all be "made straight,— that all shall be purified 
and made obedient to God — that sinners to the uttermost 
shall be saved— that the Savior, having tasted death for 
every man and seen of the travail of his soul, shall be 
satisfied— and that all men shall be redeemed, and be ho- 
ly. Now he cannot prove that all men will not be redeem- 
ed and will not be made holy and happy. But he will 
tell you that he quoted from Rev., that "'all liars, idola- 
ters" &c, shall have their part in the lake of fire &c, and 



ON UNIVERSE LISM. 123 

that this is in the future world, and therefore they can 
never be saved. Now this passage does not prove any 
such thing — it proves simply this, that these sinners, as a 
specimen of all sinners — and this too was a pledge of 
what shall be done for all sinners, that these sinners 
shall undergo a process of purification. Fire denotes a 
process of purification — a moral process here — a sovereign 
fire for purification, and not for damnation, a fire that sep- 
arates the dross from the gold, and makes it fit for the 
owners use. Fire in the Bible is used in two senses, a fig- 
urative and moral sense, — as a figure it is used to denote 
great calamities, or misfortunes, that war or famine, or 
some calamity of this kind is to come on a nation. Again 
it is used in a moral sense to denote that process under the 
government of God by which sinners are purified and fit- 
ted for heaven. 

I will give you proof of this, from the law and^ the testi- 
mony, for I do not rest this matter on assertion as the El- 
der does. 1 Cor. iii. 13-15 "Every man's works shall 
be made manifest; for the day shall declare it, because it 
shall be revealed by fire, and the fire shall try every man's 
work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide, 
which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss, 
but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.^ Here is 
a purifying process by fire! and it is not said that any one 
shall be consumed by it, or damned and lost forever — but 
shall be saved, yet so as by fire. 

It is said of Christ, he shall sit as a refiner and purifi- 
er of silver. What is a refiner's fire used for? for a bad 
purpose? to destroy any thing good or valuable? No, but 
to separatejhat which is evil from the good, separate the 
dross from the gold. Again, truth is like the fuller's 
soap: Well fullers soap is not used for a bad purpose, 
only to separate that which is filthy and worthless from 
the valuable. John the Baptist says of Christ. "He shall 
baptise you with the Holy Ghost and with fire: whose fan 
is in his hand, and he will thoroughly purge his floor, and 
will gather the wheat into his garner, but the chaff he will 
burn with fire unquenchable." Now, this means that all 



124 A DISCUSSION 

stand here growing up as wheat, encompassed with this 
earthy nature — but shall be redeemed and purified by this 
process, cleansed from all sin, and gathered at last, into 
the garner of the Lord. Says our Savior, with respect to 
this, "For every one shall be salted with fire." And the 
Apostle says, "That which beareth briers and thorns is 
rejected, and is nigh unto cursing, whose end is to be burn- 
ed." The same figure is carried out in all these passag- 
es. The Agriculturist, having a piece of ground yield- 
ing briars and thorns — but desirous of having it produce 
a more valuable crop, causes it to undergo a process of 
fire. So in a moral sense. We have all borne the briars 
and thorns — " The fruits of the flesh are manifest, wrath, 
strife, envyings, murders, drunkeness, revel lings," fee- 
Now this lake of fire and brimstone, in which all unbe- 
lievers, liars, adulterers, fee, shall have a part, is the 
same process of fire. The result will be the same — the 
purification of those submitted to its trial — and the de* 
struction of sin, death and the Devil. 
[Time expired. 

[jur. power's fourteenth reply.] 

Gentlemen Judges and"* the Congregation.— -We will 
make ajFew passing remarks on the gentleman's last la- 
bored speech. He without taking up the scriptures I had 
adduced, and examining them by themselves, gave them 
a running notice, with the charge, which I deny, of mis- 
quoting, and then took up the text, in 1st. Cor. iii. explain- 
ing the passage in Rev. by it. Now, he assumes, as the 
basis of his interpretation, that the hay, wood and stubble, 
mean our pride and imperfections fee, in this world. This 
is the basis — remove this and all his labor is lost. 

We deny that this is the Apostle's meaning here. The 
ministers of the Gospel are represented as the builders, 
and the members of the visible church, as the materials 
of which the building is constructed. And in the building 
is included, with reference to their individual moral char- 
acter, those represeted by hay, wood, and stubble, And 
no where in the Bible are mere abstract principles or prac- 



ON UNIVERSALIS!*. 125 

trees of men either good or bad represented as a building. 
And 1 object to the interpretation on this ground — if any 
man's works, that is, seduction, murder, robbery? &c, be 
burned, destroyed, or cleansed from him, he shail suffer 
loss. As if it were a loss for any one to be saved from 
these crimes, and cleansed from all inequity! The Holy 
Spirit could never teach such a doctrine, for it would en- 
courage all to live in crimes, for if they are burned, or 
they are saved from sin, they suffer loss ! But to refer to 
the ministry. Ministers receive into the church, all they 
suppose to be converted, and sometimes admit those that 
ought not to belong to the church, in the state they are in. 
Now, at the day of judgment his church will be tried, and 
those who are not pure, shall be rejected, and the minister, 
shall suffer loss, but shail himself he saved, yet so as by 
fire. And that the gentleman's position utterly fails, is 
clear from the text itself. He maintains that the fire 
there spoken of is a purifying process by which men are 
fitted for heaven. And he has told us in other places that 
men are fitted for heaven by the renovating power of 
God's grace. And you will all recollect that up to his last, 
speech he has maintained that the resurrection alone effect- 
ed the change, both physical and moral, that fitted men. 
for heaven. But now, he finds it convenient to reject all 
his former positions, and take the ground that a fire of 
some kind is necessary to effect this purification. 

I remind you again my friends to look at the sign over 
his door. 

Finally, in reference to this purifying process by fire. 
The passage says, that all the wicked spoken of shall have 
their part in thelake which burneth with fire and brim- 
stone — which is the second death. This is a spiritual 
death. Then according to the gentleman, those subject 
to it, are purified into a second spiritual death. Now, this 
is a kind of purifying proceess the Bible knows nothing 
about. It is a process which purifies into a moral and spir- 
tuaKdeath ! ! 

Now to the main subject. You recollect the charge I 
brought against the system I oppose, and that I challenged 
the gentleman or any one to deny it. 

11 



12G A DISCUSSION 

I repeat, I charge the system, with having released 
men from all obligation to love or obey God, or to regard 
the rights of their fellow men, with reference to their fi- 
nal salvation. It holds that a man may live in all the a- 
bominations and crimes, which it is possible for man to 
commit, and then die by his own hand, and yet be uncon- 
ditionally sure of Heaven. I challenge the gentleman to 
deny this. He did not deny this charge in his last evasive 
speech. And no one has dared to deny it. 

The only point on which he attempted to raise a little 
dust, was that 1 had charged the system with offering a 
reward for the commission of crime. 

Now, if I assure any individual that if he will perform a 
particular work, he will inherit a large estate, would I not 
be holding out a reward for the performance of that act ? 
The system 1 oppose says to every individual, if you are 
tired of suffering, the universalist's hell is in this world, 
you have the key in your own hand, just turn the bolt, 
commit suicide, and you shall be crowned in heaven as the 
result. 

You may call this offering a reward or what you please, 
I am not particular about what term you use, the fact 
stands out in bold relief. The gentleman enquires, why 
do we not see persons all over the land cutting their 
throats ! This the advocates of the system must answer 
themselves. But 1 think the reason is, they have not 
faith enough in their theory to reduce it to practice. If 
their system be true, they might terminate their life here, 
and go to heaven before sun down. But they dare not 
try it. 

I now proceed with my arguments. 

The gentleman thinks after all, that we must be saved 
by grace. Here he has turned another corner. A little 
while since we were to be saved by the resurrection. He 
has quoted the passage which says, " other foundation 
can no man lay fhan that is laid, which is Jesus Christ,' * 
and I intend now to show, that his system rejects Jesus 
Christ to all intents and purposes, as a Savior. If Christ 
saves sinners or the world of sinners, it must be from fu- 
ture punishment for sin, or from the commission of sin, 






OX UNIVERSALISM. 127 

or from the punishment of sin in this life. Take away 
these and what salvation is left for Christ to perform? 
But does Christ save men from future punishment'? No. 
The system maintains thai there is no such punishment 
in the universe. 

Again : does Jesus Christ save men from the commis- 
sion of sin in this world ? No. The gentleman has sav- 
ed me the trouble of proof on this point. He says every 
invidual, including myself in particular, has sin and im- 
purity till death. Then there is no grace offered in Christ 
as a Savior from future punishment, or from the commis- 
sion of sin in the present life. Then if the gentleman 
has a Savior at all, it must be to save from the punish- 
ment of sin in this world. But does the system save men 
from the punishment of sin in this world ? No. It holds 
that every sin is punished in this world, according to its 
full deserts. This is the peculiarity of the system. Now 
I ask how is Jesus Christ a Savior at all ? What does he 
save from ? All the Savior we have according to the gen- 
tleman is the resurrection, or the power exerted in the 
resurrection. And to make this, or Christ in it a Savior, 
he has to deny the immortality of the soul, and place us 
all on a level with the beasts; and he has this resurrection 
effected by a finite power, or makes God give up his omni- 
potence and cease to be God, and lands us in atheism. We 
hold therefore, that a system that rejects and contradicts, 
all the cardinal doctrines of the holy Scriptures, cannot be 
supported by the authority of the Bible, and is to all in- 
tents and purposes, a system of stubborn infidelity. And I 
maintain that Universalism does do this, — that it turn 
man lose in the world, and releases him from all restraint, 
and does to all intents and purposes reject Jesus Christ as 
a Savior, and makes the sinner suffer for his own sins ; it 
takes the sinner to heaven not by grace, but on the 
ground alone of sheer justice,— it says the sinner has ne- 
ver been pardoned for a solitary sin, that he has been pun- 
ished for every sin to^the last farthing, and that he can 
claim salvation as his right on the score of justice. 

I remind this respected audience again that I allow all to 
universalism that it claims, i. e. that man is under obliga- 



128 A DISCUSSION 

tion to God and man in this world, not in reference to his 
eternal condition, but wholly and exclusively to his con- 
dition in this world. It teaches that it will make him more 
happy in this world, but no surer of heaven in the fu- 
ture world. Hence it is perfectly at his option, whether 
he will be moral in this world or not. If he purpose to 
]ive in hell — the universalis hell — in this world, he can, 
and he will lose nothing in future by it. If he perfers to 
go to the card table, or to the house of crime, he is at lib- 
erty to make his choice. If he goes one night, he can if 
he chooses, the next night creep back into the Universal - 
ist's hell: for God has given him the power of choice. Or 
if he choose he can come out of hell and enter into heav- 
en; but should he shun all this and live a virtuous life, he 
is no more sure of heaven in the future world, than if he. 
Jived here in all manner of crime. — [Time expired. 

[MR. TOOLITTLE's FIFTEENTH SPEECH.] 

Our friend has said a good many things which we can 
give a passing notice only. He has recapitulated some of 
his charges again, I have but little to say about them* 
They may go for all they are worth. I have found from 
observation that when an opponent, was hard crowded 
and had no better arguments, he would in the place of ar- 
guments resort to hard sayings. 

With respect to the purifying process by fire, our 
friend says if persons would suffer loss as described, they 
would prefer not to have their works burned. Now this 
is a curious way of getting along with this matter. Suffer 
loss of what? of anything valuable? No, they shall lose 
the wood, hay, and stubble, and no great calamity eilher. 
I should think if I had been building with such materials, 
the sooner they were lost the better. Now such things 
only are to be lost — nothing that is considered valuable. 
"But he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire." Hence it 
is plain that the scripture represents this as a process of 
purification, not of damnation. But he says this purifies 
them, into the second death, which he says is a spirituai 



ON UNIVERSALIS**. 120 

death. Now I ask what will become of his second death, 
"when death the last enemy shall be destroyed?" I con- 
clude that this will be the end of sin, the destruction of the 
briers and thorns, the purification from all dross. 

The gentleman says I dare not deny — what? why, in 
substance that the chief of sinners may be saved by the 
grace of God. [Mr. Power here said, this was an eva- 
sion.] But still I say it is the substance of the charge. 

It is the opinion of many that no man ever committed 
suicide in his reason. But admitting they do go out of 
the world as sinners, he has represented me as denying 
that they may be saved by the grace of God. Well this 
is a very strange idea — very strange that the greatest of 
sinners may not be saved. Do you think my friends it 
would be any stretch of infinite mercy to save the greatest 
ofsimiers? I read in the bibie that the worst of sinners, 
may be saved, "the blood of Christ cleanseth from all sin" 
"and this is a faithful sayiug," says Paul, "that Christ Je- 
sus came into the world to save sinners, of whom 1 am 
chief." Did Christ come into the world to do a work that 
he was unable to perform ? Now with respect to the great- 
est of sinners, Paul in 1 Cor. vi. mentions some of the 
worst classes, adulterers, thieves, drunkards, &c, and says 
"such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are 
sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Je- 
sus, and by the spirit of our God." Here then the worst 
of sinners are saved, and will our friend limit the power 
of God? and will he limit the exertion of this power to a 
particular day or hour, and say thus far shalt thou go and 
no farther ? Will he, a feeble worm of the dust, dare to 
limit the power of the Holy One of Israel ? Strange pre- 
sumption! 

Again: the gentleman says that our system holds that 
every man has the keys of heaven and hell in his own 
hands. 1 hold no such thing. The keys of heaven and 
hell are in the hands of the Lord Jesus Christ, he shall 
open and no man shut, and shut and no man open. 

Again: he says that our system denies that Christ is 
the Savior of the world. This is not true — we teach no 
such doctrine. What? Universalism teach thus, and then 

m 



ISO a Discffssror* 

we preach universal salvation through Christ! What con- 
sistency in such a charge as this. 

Again: he says our system robs God of his omnipotence 
— that God imparts this omnipotence to Christ, and thus 
deprives himself of it, and this amounts to Atheism. But 
why does he say this? We believe we showed that the 
scriptures teach that God imparts power enough to Jesus 
Christ to enable him to accomplish the object of his mis- 
sion, and still he holds the reins of government himself. 
Now we will present the gentleman with some more proof 
with another argument. But before I adduce it, I want 
you to bear in mind, that he says all must be convert- 
ed in this world in order to be saved in the future world, 
1 will now adduce proof that all will be converted ultimate- 
ly, Phil. ii. 10-11. "That at the name of Jesus ever knee 
should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and 
things under the earth; And that every tongue should 
confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the 
Father." "A form of expression which is the strongest 
in the Bible," says Prof. Stewart "to denote the whole in- 
telligent universe." Now mark what John says respecting 
this confession 1 Johniv. 15, "Whosoever shall confess 
that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he 
in God." — "1 John v. 1, Whosoever believeth that Jesus 
is the Christ, is born of God." 

As farther proof, 1 cite your attention to the declaration 
of Paul 1 Cor. xii. 3, ''Wherefore I give you to under- 
stand, that no man speaking by the spirit of God, calleth 
Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the 
Lord, but by the Holy Ghost." 

Mark, the point to be proved is that every one will be 
converted or born of God, and we have proved that at the 
name of Jesus every knee should bow, and every tongue 
confess, and the language here used is the strongest in the 
Bible, to denote the whole intelligent universe. And John 
tells us that whoever makes this confession is born of 
God, and Paul informs us that no man can say that Jesus 
is the Lord but by the Holy Ghost, this then proves that 
all will be born again, and that this is brought about by 
the influence of the spirit of God on the heart. Now for 






OH imiVEKSALIS-JT. 131 

the conclusion of the matter Rom. v. 19-21. "For as by- 
one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by 
the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. More- 
over the law entered, that the offence might abound. But 
where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: That 
as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign 
through righteousness unto eternal life, by Jesus Christ 
our Lord." Here on this passage, or on the last verse, I 
wish to introduce the remarks of Dr. Adam Clark, a man 
who for learning, eminent talents, and deep piety, has not 
been excelled in this age. Verse 21. That as sin hath 
reigned unto death. *' As extensively, as deeply, as uni- 
versally, as sin whether implying, the act of transgression 
or the impure principle from which the act proceeds, or 
both: — hath reigned, subjected the whole earth, and all its 
inhabitants, the whole soul, and all its powers, and penal- 
ties unto death temporal, of the body, spiritual of the soul 
and eternal of both ; even so as extensively, deeply and 
universally, might grace reign, filling the whole earth, 
and prevading, purifying, and refining the soul, — through 
righteousness, through this doctrine of 'free salvation, by 
the blood of the Lamb, and by the principle of holiness 
transfused through the soul by the Holy Ghost, unto eter- 
nal life; — the proper object of an immortal spirit's hope, 
the only sphere where the human intellect can rest and 
be happy in the place and state where God is, where he 
is seen as he is, and where he can be enjoyed without in- 
terruption in an eternal progression of knowledge and 
beatitude, by Jesus Christ our Lord, as the cause of our sal- 
vation, the means by which it is communicated, and the 
source which it springs." Thus we find that the salvation 
from sin here is as extensive and complete as the gmlt and 
contamination of sin, death is conquered, hell is disappoint- 
ed, the devil confounded, and sin totally destroyed. Here 
is glory ing^ 'Ho him that loved us and washed us from our 
sins in his own blood, and has made us kings and priests to 
God and his Father, be glory and dominion for ever and ever, 
Amen, halleluiah, the Lord God omnipotent reigneth! 
Amen, and Amen!!." Now who can preach Universalism 
•tronger than this ? And who wants anything to teach 



132 A DISCUSSION 

more satisfactory universal salvation from all sin, than 
this passage ofscripture 1 [Time expired . 

[Here it was agreed by the speakers to meet in the mor- 
ning and make their summing up speeches on the first 
question and proceed to the discussion of the second que 
tion.] 



Friday Morning, Aug. 1 — 9 o'clock. 

[Mr. Power arose and stated, that on the proposition of 
Mr. Doolittle, he would now make his closing speech on 
the first question. And Mr. Doolittle interrupted to ex- 
plain, and near a half hour was taken up in explanatory 
remarks on both sides. The substance of which was, 
that Mr. Doolittle, had not proposed to close his affirma- 
tive, because he had adduced all the proof he might, but 
because be supposed they could not remain long enough 
to give an equal amount of time to the second question, 
unless they closed the first then; but as Mr. Power was 
willing to stay six months if necessary, and there was 
nothing of importance in the way of Mr. Doohttle's re- 
maining some time, it was concluded to go on with the 
discussion of the first question, especially as Mr. Doolittle 
had quite an amount of new proof he wished to bring for 
ward on his affirmative.] 

[mr. power's fifteenth reply.] 

Gentlemen Moderators. — I arise to reply to the gen- 
tleman's speech on last evening, and adduce my counter 
proof against his system. The first remark I make is on 
his comments on my reply to his interpretation and ap- 
plication of 1 Cor. iii. concerning the wood, hay, stubble, 
&c. He occupied half his time in answering a position 
which I did not take, viz. That a man suffers loss in hav- 
ing his errors, sins and corruptions separated from him. 
I was astonished at this, and wondered what could have 
led him into such an absurdity. What I said was that 



ON UNIVERSALISM. 133 

the gentleman's interpretation involved this absurdity, 
that it was a loss for men to be saved from their sins or 
imperfections of any kind. Now, every one knows that 
it is a real benefit for a man to lose his faults. But his 
interpretation makes it a real loss. 

I am willing to refer the passage in Rev. to his friend 
Dr. Clarke, to whom he refers so much. For he fixed the 
fire there spoken of in the future world, and says there 
is no recovery from this second death. 

I proceed now to notice his proof texts, and I call spe- 
cial attention to this matter. He quoted from Phil. ii. 
I John v. — 1 Cor. xii. — and Rom. v., for this object — to 
prove that all men would be regenerated in this world. 
What was this for? Why, that they might be prepared 
for heaven hereafter. But you will recollect, that in his 
main proof text, regeneration was not necessary. He 
staked his entire system on the resurrection, and rested 
his whole proofon the fact that the change was to take place 
in the resurrection. You remember that he announced 
to us, that if the xvth of 1 Cor. did not prove his posi- 
tion there was no proof under heaven that would. But 
now he leaves that ground entirely, and undertakes to 
prove that all this change takes place in this world. He 
abandons the strongest proof under heaven, according to 
his own showing, and takes this new ground, fundamental- 
ly different from his first position. Well, I am glad to 
try every point under heaven where he thinks his system 
can find rest for its feet a single moment. 

A remark with reference to the quotation from Rom. v. 
and Dr. Clarke's comment. If Dr. Clarke gave the gen- 
tleman's views here, it was not because he had any fel- 
lowship with his system, for he says respecting it, — "I 
have read the best things that have been written in favor 
of it, but I never saw a production but what sound learning 
and criticism should be ashamed to acknowledge." 

But to the criticism: "Thai as sin hath reigned unto 
death, even so might grace reign." Take notice, does it 
say, grace does reign? No. So might grace reign . On 
what terms might it reign? Why the Apostle explains 
on what condition, in the first part of the chapter. There- 



134 



A DISCUSSION 



fore being justified by faith,"— here is the condition or. 
which this grace is to reign. It is by being justified ly faith, 
that "we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus 
Christ." This is Paul's own interpretation of the princi- 
ple on which we are to have peace with God. And he 
has further said that « without faith it is impossible to 
please God. 7 ' 

Turn now to 1 Cor. xii. 3, and observe the gentleman's 
main point is to prove that all are regenerated in this 
world. " Wherefore I give you to understand, that no 
man speaking by the spirit of God, calleth Jesus accursed : 
and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the 
Holy Ghost.' 7 This passage the gentleman makes paral- 
lel with Phil. it. 9—11. " Wherefore God also hath high- 
ly exalted him, and given him a name which is above ev- 
ery name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should 
bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things 
under the earth; and that every tongue should confess 
that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Fath- 
er." 

The argument here is that the last quotation announ- 
ces, that every individual of our race shall confess that 
Jesus Christ is Lord. And the quotation from Cor. shows 
that no man can call Jesus the Lord but by the Holy 
Ghost. And the conclusion is that all are regenerated by 
the power of the Holy Ghost. 

Now the difficulty in the case is, he has blendid two 
subjects which are clearly different, and by this has arriv- 
ed at hisj conclusion. In the xii. of Cor., the case is 
clearly denned. The Apostle is speaking of the peculiar 
gifts of the spirit, and not with regard to the work of re- 
generation of the heart at all. In respect to the gift of 
prophecy, if a man called Jesus accursed, it was evidence 
that he was an im-poster, for the true prophet that was in- 
spired with the Holy Ghost, knew that Jesus was the 
Lord. Of these things he would not have his brethren 
ignorant, in order that they might discern who were true 
prophets and who were impostors. There is not a word 
here about regeneration. 

la respect to Phil, the Apostle is speaking of the sov- 



ON UNIVERSALIS]*, 135 

:ereignty of the Lord Jesus Christ. It had pleased God 

to exalt him, and give him a name above every name, that 

i all should bow to him as a sovereign, and every tongue 

- confess that he is Lord. But does this teach that he will 

. absolutely regenerate every man? There is not a word 

i about regeneration in the text. And the gentleman's 

sophistry consists in bringing regeneration into the con- 

i elusion, when it is not to be found in the premises. Or he 

j assumes thatjto bow the knee to Christ as a sovereign, and 

confess that he is Lord, is equivalent to regeneration. This 

: I deny. The Devils confess all this; but they are not 

regenerated. All this passage teaches, is that all men 

should, or ought to confess the sovereignty of Jesus 

-Christ. 

But he wished us to take particular notice of the quo- 

\ tation from 1 John. v. 1, and this we readily do: for it 

destroys his whole argument. For he holds that men are 

i regenerated without repentance, faith or obedience in this 

life. I fix this on his argument and he cannot get away 

from it He has to maintain the unconditional salvation 

i of all men in heaven without any of these qualities in 

, this life. And unless he proves that all men may go to 

heaven without believing in Christ, he does not sustain his 

position, — this is absolutely essential to his argument. 

Let us now examine his proof. u Whosoever believeth 
that Jesus is the Christ, is born of God, and everyone that 
I loveth him that begat, loveth him also that is begotten 
of him " I ask, does John say that the whole human 
family is regenerated ! No. But every one that believ- 
eth in Jesus Christ, is born of God. And what proof do 
they give that they are born of God, and does God re- 
\ quire any proof ? Yes, evidence, visible, practical, per- 
sonal evidence is required to show that one is counted the 
j child of God. Let us read the next three verses in proof. 
" By this we know that we love the children of God, when 
we love God, and keep his commandments. For this is 
the love of God, that we keep his commandments; and his 
commandments are not grevious. For whatsoever is 
born of God, overcometh the world: and this is the victo- 
ry that overcometh the world, even our faith." 



136 A DISCUSSION 

Mr. D. read only the first verse: because what fol- 
lows did not suit his purpose* It teaches most explicitly 
that God does require of men in this world as evidence 
that they are his children, iove, obedience, and faith. Now 
ihe conclusion is, which no man can deny, that if a man 
does not exercise faith, and keep his commandments, he 
does not love God, neither is beloved of God, and is un- 
der condemnation, no matter what his pretentions may 
be. So much for his proof texts. 

And another position he took was, that the blood of Je- 
sus Christ cleanseth the whole human family from all 
sin. Here is another change of position. First, it was 
the resurrection that was to do this. But seeing that this 
is a hopeless case, he now abandons it. He abandons the 
scripture on which he rested his whole system, the stron- 
gest proof in the Bible, the proof that sustained his posi- 
tion, or else no proof can do it. 

But we showed yesterday that his system rejects Jesus 
Christ as a Savior entirely. We showed that the sys- 
tem maintains that the grace of Christ does not save men 
from danger of punishment in a future world, nor from 
the commission of sin in this world; nor from the pun* 
ishmentof sin in this world; for there is according to 
the system, no danger of punishment in the future, 
and it does not deny that men live and die in sin in 
this world, but acknowledges it fully, and takes the 
ground that all are punished on earth to the full desert of 
their crimes. So all can seethe gentleman has wholly 
abandoned his first position, that the resurrection effects 
the change in man to fit him for heaven, and now takes 
the ground that the blood of Jesus Christ effects all this 
change — the moral change that fits for heaven. But does 
the blood of Christ save men from the punishment of sins 
in a future life? No, says my friend, for they are never 
exposed to punishment after death. But does it save men 
from the commission of sin in this world. No, he must 
answer, for men do live and die in sin in this world. 
Well then does the blood of Christ save m&n from the 
punishment of sin in this world ? No, says his system, 
man is to be punished for all his sins in this life to the full 



ON UKIVERSALISM. 13? 

extent of his deserts. Consequently the system rejects 
the life and death and blood of Christ as a Savior, and 
denies the necessity of the influence of the Holy Spirit in 
regeneration. For if, as a matter of fact, men have to 
suffer the punishment due to all their crimes to the full 
extent in this world, — they can claim heaven as a matter 
of justice, independent of God's grace — independent of the 
atonement-of Christ — independent of the Boly Spirit in 
regeneration, and independent of every other principle but 
stern justice. [Time expired. 

[mr. doolittle's sixtkentii speech.] 

The first statement I notice is this: Mr. Power says that 
I staked my ground and rested solely for my support on 
the resurrection of all men to an immortal state of exis- 
tence. 

And he says that in my last speech last evening, I turn- 
ed a"som me rset. Now 1 would say that I do not claim 
•much skill at such feais, and will accredit to my friend 
greater skill than I possess. 

But he says I at first rested for proof solely on the res- 
urrection of ail men, which would make them incorrupti- 
ble, and make them equal to the angels, and bring them 
into the glorious liberty of the children of God, and that I 
maintained this up to last evening, and then abandoned 
my ground and predicated the proof on the ground that all 
men would be regenerated in this life. But, we say this 
is not the fact, and you will see that it is not. 

I told you that I considered the argument from the 
resurrection sufficient proof, provided there was no other 
argument in the Bible. But 1 did not rest solely on that, 
1 hold on other proof. And in connection with that proof 
— which I said was sufficient proof alone, but which did 
not stand alone, I brought forward other proof. But in 
doing so I have not abandoned the position I first took. 
My friend is mistaken. 1 still hold on to the proof of 
the resurrection, and all the means of the grace of God 
and the power of that grace, as connected with the great 
scheme of redemption, from the first development of it 

12 



138 A DISCUSSION 

through all its manifestation?, in the laboring, suffering 
and death of Jesus Christ to the final consummation of the 
great work. But I said that the resurrection was the last 
crowning act. It was the capstone to the^great building. And 
to prove that this was .the last work, I quoted "Then Com- 
eth the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom 
to God even the Father, when he shall have put down all 
rule and all authority and power." Then the last ene- 
my shall be destroyed, and Jesus Christ himself be sub- 
ject to the Father, and God shall be all in all. When God 
shall be all in all in this sense, then all shall be sanctified 
and become his fit subjects, by the power of the spirit of 
his grace and truth. But my friends this is the comple- 
tion of the great work that is begun here. It is not the 
whole of it, but the last crowning act. We must take 
into consideration all things connected with the great 
scheme of redemption, and consider each part as a link 
in this great chain. The grace of God, and the blood of 
Christ are links in this chain as important as any other, 
it takes all these things connected to complete the chain. 
And when I take up one of these links to speak of its im- 
portance in this great scheme, I do not by any means aban- 
don any other point which is just as important as this. I 
do hope hereafter when I am speaking of the importance 
of any one of these things that belong to the great work, 1 
shall not be accused of changing my ground. 

I want you to bear in mind that I did not take the posi- 
tion that men are fully qualified on earth for heaven. Even 
the best christians, the greatest saints that ever lived, I 
said had the seeds of corruption in them until death. And 
I stated that as good a man as our friend Power is, that un- 
less he experienced more of a change for the better than he 
had yet experienced, this side the grave, he could not enter 
heaven. Proof: 

"There is not a just man upon the earth that doeth good 
and sinneth not." "If we say that we have no sin, we de- 
ceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." Now if our 
friend comes up and tells us that he is without sin, the 
Apostle will tell him that the truth is not in him. Hence 
I say as the lest Christians have sin about them till death* 



ON UNIVERSALE!. 139 

it needs the resurrection as the last crowning act of Al- 
mighty Grace and Redeeming Power, which shall not 
only redeem all Christians, but the whole intelligent cre- 
ation, and deliver them from the bondage of corruption in- 
to the glorious liberty of the children of God, and make 
them equal unto the angels and children of God, being chil- 
dren of the resurrection, and not subject to death any 
more. And without this crowning act the greatest Chris- 
tian may despair of purity and heaven, and immortal hap- 
piness. 

We would not at all detract from Christian graces, but 
say that no man arrives at sinless perfection in this life. 
This change is effected in the last act, by the power of the 
resurrection. It is the opinion of the most intelligent di- 
vines, and of a great body of Christians, that the best are 
not perfect in this life, but the perfection began here is 
perfected at death. 

My friend accuses me of changing my ground in taking 
the position that salvation is by grace, in my interpreta- 
tion of the 5th of Rom. Now I want to take up this pas- 
sage to show you that salvation here is of grace alone, and 
is not predicated on good works. 

Let us see if we are mistaken in the premises here. 
Mark the reading of this and see if there are any works 
of the creature that saves him: 

"But as the offence so is the free gift, For if through 
the offence of one many be dead, [ mark the*parallel 'that 
is kept up here and see how clearly the remedy is made as 
extensive as the disease] much more the grace of God, and 
the gift by grace, which is by one man Jesus Christ hath 
abounded unto many." Now mark the parallel while 
the same many that fall into sin— ^he many that receiv- 
ed the gift of God through grace. "And not as it was by 
one that sinned, so is the gift; for the judgment was by one 
to condemnation; but the gift is of many offences to justi- 
fication. " The gift is free, not obtained by the works of 
the creature. "For if by one man's offence death reigned 
by one, much more they who receive abundance of grace, 
and of the gift of righteousness, shall reign in life by one 
Jesus Christ. " Now mark the conclusion of the matter. 



140 A DISCUSSION 






"Therefore, as by the offence of one, judgment came up 
on all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness 
of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification 
of life." The same all shall receive the free gift unto 
justification of life,. The parallel kept up here through- 
out the whole, necessarily makes this so. This is the ar- 
gument of the Apostle. And he adds, to make the argu- 
ment still stronger if possible. "For as by one man's dis- 
obedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of 
one shall many be made righteous. " The same many 
that were made sinners by the disobedience of one, are to 
be made righteous by the obedience of one. "Moreover 
the law entered that the offence might abound. But where 
sin abounded grace did much more abound. That as sin 
hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through 
righteousness unto eternal life, by Jesus Christ our Lord." 
And do you not recollect what I quoted from Dr. Clarke, in 
which he says "that the salvation from sin here is as ex- 
tensive and complete as the guilt and condemnation of sin." 
And my friends we need no greater salvation than a sal- 
vation from sin. — But our friend Power tells us that this is 
a limited salvation. But Paul says as the offence came 
upon all even so the free gift came upon all. And Dr. 
Clarke says the salvation from sin is as extensive as the con- 
demnation of sin. Now how extensive is the condemna- 
tion of sin? Paul tel!s us "that by one man sin entered 
into the world, and death by sin, and so death passed upon 
all men, for that all have sinned." Then as the remedy 
is as extensive, all men will be saved from sin. The con- 
clusion then from this text is that the salvation of all men 
is complete. And as Dr. Clarke says, death is conquered, 
hell is disappointed, and the devil is confounded, and sin 
totally destroyed. 

1 hope our friend will bear this argument in mind. And 
that this lightand knowledge may producein him conver- 
lion before he leaves. 

But he finds fault with my argument from this pas- 
sage in Phil. "Wherefore God also hath highly exalted 
him, and given him a name which is above every name. 
That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of 



■ 



ON XJNIVERSALISM. 141 

things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under 
the earth. And that every tongue should confess that 
Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." 
Proof — Stewart tells us that the phraseology here, is a 
Hebraism, used to denote the whole intelligent universe, 
that it is the strongest language that could be used to de- 
note this. And this kind of bowing and confessing must 
mean humble submission to the government of God. Be- 
cause the same Apostle tells you, "That no man can say 
that Jesus Christ is Lord but by the Holy Ghost." Hence 
my argument was, that this universal confession made by 
the influence of the Holy Ghost was evidenee that all will 
be changed by the influence of God's grace on the soul, and 
render perfect obedience unto God, and be holy and happy 
in heaven. 

Again; I quoted from 1 John " Whosoever believeth 
that Jesus is the Ghrist is born of God," This goes to 
strengthen the argument. But in further confirmation 
of it let me tell you that the quotation from Phil, is paral- 
lel to a text in Isa. xlv. 22-23 "look unto me and be ye 
saved all the ends of the earth, for 1 am God and there i3 
none else." Now see if there is any condition of faith or 
obedience on our part on which we are saved — I have 
sworn by myself saith Jehovah "that unto me every 
knee shall bow, and every tongue shall swear." To make 
it sure that all should be saved through Jesus Christ, he 
makes his promise with an oath, and God's word will not 
return to him void. For thus saith God "so shall my word 
be that goeth forth out of my mouth, it shall not return 
unto me void; but it shall accomplish that which I please, 
and it shall prosper in the thing where unto I send it." 

Thus you see that at the name of Jesus every knee 
shall bow, and every tongue shall confess, to the glory of 
God the Father. And says God the Father, in view of 
this event, surely shall say, "In the Lord have I right- 
eousness and strength, even to him shall men come, and 
all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed." 

[Time expired. 
12* 






us a discussion 

[mr. power's sixteenth reply.} 

Gentlemen Moderators and the Congregation. — The genv 
tleman declined closing his affirmative this morning on the 
ground that he wanted to bring forward considerable ad- 
ditional proof. And we prepared to meet him with any- 
additional proof he might adduce. But we perceive there 
is no additional labor for us to perform at this time. And 
we might say as the Indian interpreter did. Just as be- 
fore. 

From the course he took yesterday, we brought the 
charge that he had changed his position. When last up, 
he said I was mistaken, and that he had not changed his 
ground, but had only made a little enlargement. 

He said that means of grace are to be used in man's 
salvation, and he brought one additional text to prove that 
nil would confess Christ and be saved. His assumptions 
are incorrect. He announced that the text quoted, is un- 
conditional. We deny this assertion. "Look unto me 
and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth." Now is look- 
ing to the Lord unconditional ? What is the object of 
their looking ? It is that they might be saved. This 
means reformation, turning to the Lord, faith in Jesus 
Christ, and implies the performance of ail the conditions 
of salvation, on the part of men. 

Another assumption is that, bowing the knee, and ac- 
knowledging that Jesus is the Lord, is equivalent to all in- 
tents and purposes, to holiness of heart and life, and to all 
the change necessary to prepare for heaven. The as- 
sumption is an absurdity.* And unless he had been pres- 
sed, and led to the necessity of adopting any course, if 
possible to save his argument, he never would have made 
it. 

Our remarks in reference to the quotation from 1. Cor. 
and Phil, we leave to the congregation to decide upon as 
they choose. He quoted againfrom 1 John. ''Whosoever 
believeth that Jesus is Christ is the born of God." Now 
we gave to you before, John's explanation. He gives the 
infallible standard of proof that a man is born of God. He 
baa faith— that faith which works by lovo and purifies the 



OK tJNIVERSALISM. M3 

heart, aud he keeps the commandments of God. And er- 
ery one that does not give this evidence, gives proof to 
the contrary — that he is an enemy to God. 

A word or two in reference to Dr. Clarke on the vth. of 
Rom. 1 would remind him again, and I do it for his ben- 

, that he may appear as a disputant, in the best light be- 
fore this community; — and you will all probably recollect, 
that he has announced to us probably about every third 
speech, his question. Do the Scriptures of the Old and 
New Testameut teach &c. But he has given practical ev- 
idence, that the Scriptures as a standard of proof do not 
answer his purpose. Hence he has recourse toDr. Clarke. 
And all he gets by this source is by perverting the Dr\s. 
meaning on the text, The Dr. is speaking of those who 
believe with a heart unto righteousness, and in refer- 
ence to all such cases, he rejoices, and says. "The Lord 
God omnipotent reigneth! Amen! and Amen.'* But the 
gentleman perverts the Dr's. meaning here, and would 
make the impression that he applies this to the whole hu- 
man race. To show you that the Dr. had no sympathy 
with the gentleman, 1 will read a few lines from him. But 
will however first remark, that I did not come here to 
prove my position by commentaries, but by the Bible. I 
have not before departed from this course and should not 
now, only in justice to the honored dead, in justice to 
right criticism, injustice to the memory of a man who is 
here perverted before this community. The Dr. does not 
apply this passage to the whole human race. To show 
you what his views were on this subject, I will read you 
his comment on Rev. xx. 14. And death and hell were 
cast into the lake of fire. "Death himself is now abol- 
ished, and the place for separate spirits do longer needful. 
All dead bodies and separated souls being rejoined and no 
more separation of bodies and souls by death to take place, 
consequently the existence of these things is no farther 
necessary.' ' 

This is the second death. "The first death consisted in 
the separation of the soul from the body for a season, the 

jnd death in the separation of body and soul from God 
forever. The first death is that from which there may be 



144 A DISCUSSION 

a resurrection, the second death, is that from which there 
can be no recovery. By the first, the body is destroyed 
during time; by the second, body and soul are destroyed 
through eternity/' 

So you see the gentleman has really traduced the re- 
putation of the pious Dr. in making him teach the un- 
conditional salvation of the whole human family. 

I do not ask an apology for this departure, for it is»to 
sustain the reputation of an eminent servant of God and of 
the church. 

Again: the gentleman has made a personal allusion to 
my case. Stating that I cannot be saved in heaven unless 
I am changed and made better than I am now. But as I 
will not spend time in mere personalities, I have only to 
remark on this, that-if I perish and go to perdition, it will 
not alter the truth of 'God's word. 

But the position he takes here is that all orthodox chris- 
tians maintain, that all persons including the best of chris- 
tians, live and die in sin, i. e. they have some of the seeds 
of sin remaining in them till death, and consequently, there 
must be a change after death, before they can enter heav- 
en; for all must be holy there. Now we think we are 
authorized, from the knowledge we have of the theological 
views generally held on this subject, to state that the gen- 
tleman is incorrect here, They believe that every believ- 
er will be fully saved, and wholly sanctified either before 
or in the article of death, before they reach the future 
world, and they depend wholly on the grace of God for 
their hope of heaven. Hence, his announcement that all 
orthodox christians take common ground with his system 
here, is as wide from the truth as the poles. 

All protestant denominations so far as I know, depend 
alone for salvation, on the riches of the infinite grace of 
God, revealed and made accessible toman, thro' the incar- 
nation, merits, death, and resurrection of Christ. And they 
believe that salvation is wholly of grace. But while they 
believe it is of grace, they believe it is wrought in their 
heart, and that the blood of Christ is applied to their heart, 
on condition of repentance and faith in Christ in this world , 
and that they are cleansed either before or in death, by 



ON UNIVERSALIS!*!. 145 

the infinite grace of God — wholly sanctified and fitted for 
heaven. 

The change that fits for heaven is wrought in the be- 
lievers heart by the direct agency of the Holy Spirit, and 
is wholly a work of grace. And God can effect this work 
as well before, as at, or in death. 

Whenever the individual believes in God with all his 
heart, he puts on the hope of glory, and the image of God 
is formed in his heart, and if he holds out faithful, he ia 
sure of eternal life. 

These are the views of all Protestant denominations, 
though we may differ in some minor points. Still on all 
the vital points, all these denominations agree. While the 
gentleman's system throws man on the virtue of his own 
personal suffering for his preparation for heaven. I charge 
his system with taking away all the means of preparing 
men for heaven, or for future glory, and all the necessi- 
ty of his having any means in this life. 

To show you that men may be made holy in this life, I 
read 1 John i. 8, 9. "if we say that we have no sin, we 
deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess 
our sins, he i3 faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and 
to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." 

But the gentleman says we must wait till -the resurrec- 
tion, before we can be cleansed from all our unrighteous- 
ness, and possess perfect moral purity in our hearts. Let 
us put his statement in one scale and the Apostle's in the 
other and see which will outweigh. The Aposlle says if 
we confess our sins God is faithful and just to forgive us 
our sins, and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. But the 
gentleman says, if we confess our sins, God is not so faith- 
ful and just as to forgive us, and cleanse us, but we must 
suffer the penalty in full for our sins, and wait for the res- 
urrection to cleanse us. I know his system tries to cover 
up this position by teaching that "God punishes the sinner 
but pardons the sin." But this is a glaring absurdity. 
According to the system, God neither pardons the sin, nor 
sinner. 

Now, to show you that men are pardoned, and fitted for 
heaven in this world, we quote 1 John iv. 16, 17. "And 



146 A DISCUSSION 

we have known and believed the love that God hath to us* 
God is love: and he that dwelleth in love, dwelleth in God, 
and God in him." Now what state is a man in, when he 
dwells in love and in God, and God VI wells in him 1 This 
is as strong an expression as could be used to show that 
the believer is at peace with God, and is in the full enjoy- 
ment of Divine favor. But where is this enjoyed ? The 
answer is at hand. "Herein is our love made perfect, 
that we may have boldness in the day of judgment : be- 
cause as he is, so are we in this world." In this world we 
are like Christ. And our love is made perfect in this 
world, in order that we may have boldness in the day of 
judgment. Now love is the fulfilling of the law, if then 
our love is made perfect, the law must be fulfilled in us, 
and we be rendered pure and fit for heaven, and all this is 
done in this world. For further proof of this position i 
quote Phil. iii. 13 — 15. The Apostle is here speaking of 
the triumph of grace in this world, in sanctifying the soul, 
and of the triumph in the future world in raising the 
bodies of the pious. In reference to the resurrection 
state, he says. "Brethren, I count not myself to have ap- 
prehended : but this one thing I do, forgetting those things 
which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things 
which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of 
the high calling of God in Jesus Christ." But in reference to 
his attainment in this present mortal state, in reference to 
his preparation for the future state, he says, "Let us there- 
fore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any 
thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this 
unto you." Here you see that the gentleman, and Jeho- 
vah speaking through his Apostle, are directly at issue. 

The gentleman says there is no one perfect in love, or 
holy in this life, that there is no perfect love, that there is 
no freedom from sin before death. But God says "love 
is perfected in us," and perfect love casteth out fear, and 
allows the Apostle to speak of himself and others as being 
perfect, and if in anything they were otherwise minded, 
God should reveal even that unto them. And God says if 
we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our 
sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. But the 



ON UN1VERSALISM. 147 

gentleman says, "if you sin you must suffer for it, there is 
no forgiveness — the blood of Christ is of no use to you, the 

• love of God is of no avail to you, there is no principle in 
i the universe to assist you, but you must suffer the penalty 

• for all your sins to the fullest extent — but when you have 
done this, you may claim heaven through justice alone." 

The gentleman made a reference to means, he knew if 

• he took the ground that he did not believe in the use of 
■ means, he would uncover the head of the serpent, that he 

would expose some of the true features of his system. For 
mark, it is a prime object with the advocates of this system, 
to cover it up as much as possible. They know well if 
the serpent is seen in its true form without any covering, 
men will flee from it. 

He says, he believes in the use of means. Now I would 
I ask him if he dare to say that he believes means are nec- 
j essary to man's salvation in heaven, to be used by man in 
this world. Dare he come out openly and tell us that he 
believes that God requires of us the use of any means, 
I which if we fail to use we shall be kept out of heaven ? I 
i leave this question for the gentleman to answer. 

[_Time expired 

[mr. doolittle's seventeenth speech.] 

Gentlemen and friends. — I want to settle this position 
1 once for all. Our friend has brought it up to view I be- 
lieve, almost every time he has occupied the floor since he 
commenced. He has had much to say about faith and re- 
pentance, and obedience, as being necessary conditions of 
immortal life, as if God had predicated man's state in Ahe 
future world on some conditions to be performed by the 
creature in this life. Do you not see that this is the hold 
to which he has fled. I want to relieve him from the ne- 
cessity of laboring any more on this point. I remark how- 
ever that it is wandering from the question, but I am wil-. 
ling to wander a little time, for the sake of relieving my 
friend from his great labor on this position. The question 
under discussion has no reference to man's condition in this 
world^no reference to the benefits flowing from faith and 



148 A DISCUSSION 

obedience in this life. Of the utility of faith and obe* 
dience on the part of the creature in this life, we perfectly 
agree with the gentleman. These things are all good 
and profitable to men here, as Paul says, "Believing we 
do enter into rest," "believing" says Peter "we rejoice," 
"rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory. " We be- 
lieve that repentance and reformation result in most hap- 
py consequences. We attach great value to all these 
qualities and exercises, we give them credit for all the val- 
ue they possess. We know they are all good and pro- 
duce good results — present salvation. But remember the 
gentleman's position is that an immortal and eternal life of 
holiness, purity and endless enjoyment in the future world, 
is predicated on faith and repentance, and good works on 
the part of the creature in the present life. Now I repeat 
this is not the question under discussion. The question is, 
will all be holy and happy in an immortal state of exis- 
tence, it is not whether any will be holy or happy here, or 
whether all are sinners here, But to save the gentleman 
the trouble of agitating this point any more, I consent to 
turn aside and settle it. That salvation is not bestowed 
as a reward for gcod works, nor as a reward for merit on 
the part of the creature, the gentleman has conceded. But 
he contends that those are the conditions of obtaining sal- 
vation in heaven. Now I do not concede this, I admit 
that they are necessary as means of enjoyment in this life, 
but not as a condition of enjoyment in the future life. Now 
we have proved that men will possess glory, honor, and 
immortality in the future world, and be made equal unto 
the angels, and become the children of God, being chil- 
dren of the resurrection — that they will then possess all 
the happiness, that love, faith, and obedience can possibly 
produce, and far more than they can produce in this world, 
for these cannot cleanse men from all impurity in this life. 
We have given at least the 11th. edition of this argument 
and it must still be fresh in your minds, and it will not 
be necessary for me to go over with all this proof again. 

In the future world all will possess all the moral worth 
that can arise from faith and obedience and all christian 
graces in this world and much more. For now they are 



ON UNIVERSALIS*!. 149 

not cleansed from all moral polution. But there they are 
beyond the reach of all moral defilement. And then says 
the Apostle, "death the last enemy shall he destroyed. ,? 
Yet our friend has stated and brought Dr. Clarke to prove 
that death will be eternal. Now what is Dr. Clarke's 
opinion, when put in the balance against Paul's ? Paul 
-says death shall he destroyed, and we believe Paul. Now 
ljsay God has never given us any intimation by his proptv 
■els or Apostles, or in any other way. that he has predica- 
ted man's future blessedness in a state of immortality on 
faith and good works on the part of the creature in this 
life. Now I hope the gentleman will understand it, as 1 
have stated, 1 have proved this repeatedly on this floor. 
On account of the s f rong bias in most minds against this 
position, owing mostly from wrong early training, and be- 
ing much strengi hened by public sentiment. On account of 
this I say, I have given line upon line, and precept upon 
precept, that 1 might if possible bring all to seethe glorious 
truth on this subject. I have proved, that God hath 
saved us and called us with an holy calling, not according 
to our works, but according to his own purpose ; and grace 
-which was given us in ''Cluist Jesus before the world be- 
gan/' In which purpose, says Dr. Clarke, ''God did not 
consult with Angels, Men, or Devi's. — The purpose was 
wholly his own. lie deier mined to save ail men by his 
grace alone, and not by their works. Salvation, I repeat, 
is wholly the gift of God. "The wages of sin is death, but 
the gift of God ? is eternal iife through Jesus Christ our 
Lord." But still 1 say all our good works will be reward- 
ed. They constitute present salvation. — They make in- 
dividuals peaceful and happy in this life, and result in 
great good to society. 

Now, I hope we shall not again hear the gentleman 
say that we have a ss stem that attaches no importance to 
faith and good works. For we do attach much impor- 
tance to them. We say, they constitute a salvation. But 
not eternal salvation — that salvation is the gift of God. 

The next thing we wish to notice is the attempt of our 
friend to avoid, or deny my statement, that the best of 
Christians are contaminated with sin here; and unless they 

13 



150 A DISCUSSION 

experience some other change than that which arises from 
repentance and good works here, they can never be sav- 
ed. Weil, after a good deal of twisting and turning on 
this, he comes out and concedes all 1 wish — and his lan- 
guage, is whether a lapsus lingua or not, I cannot say. 
"Salvation in the future world depends on the grace of 
God, and the grace God can effect this change, through the 
agency of the Holy Ghost, as well after death as before." 
[Mr. Power remarked here, that the gentleman was mis- 
taken.] Let me explain a little to show you how he came 
to make the statement. He made it in opposition to my 
position that the resurrection was what completed the 
change in all men and fitted them for heaven. To show 
that my position was wrong, if possible, he was led to lay 
great stress on some other means of purification. And he 
says it is not the resurrection, but the grace of God that 
works the change. And he does not deny but that he has 
some moral pollution about him in this life : But he ex- 
pects that he will be cleansed by the grace of God, and so 
powerful is this, that the believes it can effect the change 
after death as well as before. Well, I believe this as 
well as the gentleman. I do not limit God's power. I 
believe it is just as easy for God to purify the soul after 
death, as it is before. And the gentleman can give no rea- 
son from philosophy or reason, why God cannot just as 
well make a soul, however contaminated with sin, holy 
and happy after death as before. 

You recollect I stated that unless a change, for the bet- 
ter passed on men after death, no one conld enter heaven; 
and that all denominations admitted that all were defiled 
by sin, and not fit for heaven till death. 

What denomination holds a more respectable rank a» 
mong the religious denominations of the land, than the 
Presbyterian denomination. And to show you that we 
have stated their views correctly we will read two or three 
Articles from the Presbyterian confession of faith. 

Chapter vi. sec. 5. "This corruption of nature during 
this Ufa doth remain in those that are regenerated, and 
although it be through Christ, pardoned and sanctified, yet 
both itself and all the motives thereof, are truly and pro* 



t>N UNIVERSALIS!*. 151 

perly sin. Chap. ix. sec. 4. "When God converts a sin- 
ner and translates him into a slate of grace, he freeth 
him from his natural bondage under sin, and by his grace 
alone enables him freely to will, and to do that which is 
spiritually good, yet, so that by reason of his remaining 
corruption he doth not perfectly, nor only, will that which 
is good, but doeth also that which is evil " Chap. xiii. 
sec. 2. "This sanctification is throughout in the whole 
man yet imperfect, in this life there abideth still some 
remnants of corruption in evenj part, whence arises a con- 
tinual and irreconcilable ivar, the flesh fighting against 
thespi it, and the spirit against the flesh." 

In connection with this, I give you a short chapter in 
Paul's experience. "For we know," he said, "that the 
law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin, for that 
which I do, i allow not, for what I would, that do I not, but 
what I hate that I do. Now if I do that I would not, it is 
no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleLh in me; for I de- 
light in the law of God after the inward man, but I see 
another law in my members, warring against the law of 
my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin 
which is in my members. O! wretched man that I am! 
Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" Yet 
he says, "I keep my body and bring it into subjection, lest 
that by any means, when I have preached toothers, I my- 
self should be cast away," i. e. lest he should fall from 
grace. Now this warfare is kept up with the best of men 
till death, and many who do their best are not able to keep 
?heir body under as well as Paul did, for many do fall 
from grace, as my friend believes. Eternal vigilance is 
enjoiued on christians, lest they let the world, the flesh, 
and the devil get the victory over them. But with all 
their watchfulness and care, still on account of being 
brought into captivity to the law of sin, every one can ex- 
claim with Paul, "O! wretched man that I am, who shall 
deliver me from the body of this death?" How, then, are 
we delivered and saved? It is by the power of the out- 
stretched arm of the Almighty — by the resurrection into 
the glorious liberty of the children of God — the last crown- 
ing act of Almighty power and Grace — being placed be* 



A DISCUSSION 

votul the roach o\ sin ami suffering — being made equal 
unto the angels — and children of God, being children of 
the resurrection* a fid nol subject to death any more. 

My friends, it is on this ground thai man is to be save u\ 
ami not by the works of the creature, and I hope our friend 
Power will not talk any more about the necessity of faith 
and good works to effect all this. Why. what can a frail 
I'.iu-o or a moment do to effect sr.ch a stupendous work 
as the salvation o( the soul! Salvation is all of grace and 
not of works. 

The gentleman quote 1 Dr. Ch Rev., as an offset 

\ hat he (Clarke) said on the passage in Rom. 5. where 
he tells us, "death is conquered, hell disappointed, the devil 
confounded, and sin totally destroyed," and then shouts 
•Tlallaluiah! the Lord God omnipotent reigneth! A men, 
and Anion"- in pros the glorious eensummrtion. 

Here, our friend, in order to do away with the Doctor^ 

ion on this text, which perfectly coincides with our 

opinion, he quotes his opinion on a passage in Rev. xxth, 

1 \. Here 1 would say if Dr. Clarke's opinion is of any 

value on th. /wise of equal value 

on the passage in Romans. I have k ated that Or. 

Clarke, when his mind was free from any bias by his 

ed. or from his early education, when he spoke ihe 

unprejudiced of bis mind, peached Universal- 

. and proclaimed it in as s. vms as could be used. 

The genl finds fault with my quotation from lsa. 

ri?i and says h contains a condition, bul 1 say there is no 
condition. God says, lsa. *|v. 22—24. "Look unto 
and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am '• 
and there is none else. I have sworn by myself, the word 
my mouth ia righteousness, and shall not 
return, that unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue 
shall sware — surely shall say, in the Lord have I righ- 
teousness and strength/* No condition here. The word 
has f Jehovah and it will not re- 

:\ unto Him void. Now 1 challenge the gentleman to 
tike hold of these proofs ami sec if lie can weaken them 
in the least. I / 



ON UNIVERSALIS*. 

Mr. Doolittfe expr< elose 

the 

y should sum up their arguments and take 

obably 
occupy I ;h. This prop- 

tion was a< to; and •.] 

[mr. poW£R*i I and clot 

an hour, according to the a r.t.] 

Gentlemen Moderators and the Audience* — I 
the announcement of my worthy friend, Mr. Doolittle, 
that he is through with his proof of his affirmative, ac- 
cording to the rules, to make my closing speech. 

And the circumstance* that occurred just before our 
adjournment in the fc 

to ieview the gentleman's last speech before I proceed to 
jp of the arguments adduced a3 counter 
of. 

.tiernan remarked that the state of man in this 
sue in the qu . 
as merely out of courtesy to rne that 
any attention an in this world. 

In t as a matter decided by the 

judges, that I had a right, under the id the ques- 

tion, to brir,;- >n the negative from the word 

of Gxi. on the state of man in this world, in ref- 

erence to hi3 fuiure not merely a matter 

bat he should attend to this point, but 
it was my right, and what I could demand of him ia 
:e. 

in: under the same principle of courtesy, as the 
tleman claimed, he undertook 3 of 

d in this state of being. 1 thank the gentleman for the 
little attention he gave to this subject. Bui I will here 
rreet a sentiment attributed to z: that we main- 

tain that man's immortal existence in the future world de- 
ids on his faith and obedience in this life 1 to- 

ner a mistake. We announced in the early part of this 
in order to correct this erroneous ion, 

»13 



154 A DISCUSSION 

that man was an immortal being r by the purpose of God 7 
irrespective of his conduct in this world. We have only 
sta'ed that man's future happiness or misery was suspen- 
ded on faith and obedience in this world. 

But the gentleman lelt himself pressed, as indeed her 
was, to be more explicit on this subject, and he announ- 
ced clearly that his system teaches the necessity of faith 
and good works, in order to the enjoyment of peace in this 
world only, and that they constituted a present salvation, 
but denied utterly that these conditions of happiness in this 
life had anything to do with man's happiness or misery 
in a future state of existence, — he denied that God had 
given us any intimation, in any way, that man*s happi- 
ness in the future state was predicated on faith and obedi- 
ence on the part of man in this life. We thank him for 
making this statement so clearly; and you all see that it 
is a full and clear admission, and amounts to the entire 
charge which we brought against his system, viz; that 
God releases man from all obligation whatever in this 
life, as a condition or means of their entering into heaven. 
We thank the gentleman for thus fairly acknowledging all 
we had charged agiinst his system in this respect. 

He adverted again to man's being equal to the angels 
in the resurrection. We showed the sophistry of this 
when he first brought it up. But now merely refer to it 
again. The sophistry consists in bringing man's moral 
state in the future world, into the conclusion when it is not 
contained in the premises. The question the Sadduceea 
asked the Savior, only had reference to man's relative 
condition in the resurrection state, and in answering this 
question, the Savior s*id nothing about the moral condition 
of man in that state, but said, in respect to their relative 
condition, "they are equal unto the angels, they neither 
marry nor are given in marriage." And it is his sophis- 
try alone that brings their moral condition into this ques- 
tion at all. And when this is exposed, all his argument 
here vanishes away. 

lie very modestly referred again to the sign. All we 
have to say to this is, just look over our doors and see 
where the twisting and turning is done. 



OH UNIVERSALIS!*. 155 

The next point I notice is, my friend's position in attri- 
buting to me an affirmation that I never made,- viz: that 
the grace of God is applied to man in the regeneration 
and sanctification of his nature, in the future, as well as 
in the present world. I corrected him at the time, but he 
persisted in affirming it. My friend, Mr. Doolittle, has the 
honor of being the only man with whom I have discussed 
this, or any other subject, that has refused to take my cor- 
rection in a case of this kind. 1 have only to deny that I 
hold any such sentiment, and excuse the gentleman on 
the ground that he finds it much easier to refute positions 
which he makes for me, than to meet those which I make 
myself. Most likely he thought,- "If Mr. Power will only 
let me refute a position I will take for him, 1 can get along 
well enough, but if not, I must fail certainly.'' 

His next point was, that rro one in this world is fitted 
for heaven. I cited, when last up, a number of plain 1 
Scriptures which show that persons were sanctified whol- 
ly, and perfected in love in this life; which he passed over 
entirely. And I will only add, that Enoch walked with 
God in holiness, and was translated without tasting death, 
and so was Elijah — he, in like manner, walked with God ; 
was wholly sanctified in this life and translated without 
death. 

His next effort was to excite a little sympathy in behalf 
of his system, from our Presbyterian brethren, by har- 
monizing the sentiments contained in their Confession of 
Faith with his own, and with his system. I am willing he 
should get all the sympathy he can, but I have too mucb 
confidence in my Presbyterian brethren to suppose they 
would allow the brotherhood between themselves and his 
system, which he claims. 

The last remark I have to make in review of the gen- 
tleman T s speech, is respecting his breach with bis friend, 
Br, Clarke. He appeared to care very little about Dr. 
Clarke, and finally said that when he was not under the 
influence of prejudice, he wrote Universal is-n. But he did 
not write Universalism all the time. Now if what he 
says of the Doctor is true, Dr. Clarke, with all his weight 
of character must have been a hypocrite. And my friend, 



150 A DISCUSSION 

according to his account, brings up the testimony of a 
hypocrite as proof on his affimative. 

Now, gentlemen, with these passing remarks that have 
been made hastily, in view of this being my closing speech, 
I pass to a brief review of the question that has passed 
under examination during this discussion. 

The question reads: — "Do the Scriptures of the Old 
and New Testaments teach the ultimate holiness and hap- 
piness of the entire human race in a state of immortality V ' 

The point was stated in the first place, That God had 
made full provision for the final salvation of the entire 
human family. On this, at least in appearance, we were 
agreed. 

The question then arose, "does God release man from 
all obligation of duty in this world; such as faith, refor- 
mation, love, obedience, or holiness, as necessary to pre- 
pare him to enjoy happiness in the future world?" This 
my opponent was compelled to affirm, and to take the 
ground of the unconditional salvation of the entire human 
race. This we denied, and on this point, the issue was 
joined. The gentleman's true position being, that God 
releases man from all responsibility of faith or obedience 
in this world, as a condition or means of salvation in heav- 
en. He would not, at first, frankly acknowledge that this 
is his position, but did so virtually, and adduced as his 
strongest proof, the argument of the resurrection in t'le 
xvth Chap, of 1st Cor. He informed us more than once, 
that this was the strongest proof, and if this does not sus- 
tain his system, there is no proof under heaven that can. 

His main proof from this was: "For as in Adam all 
die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive/' He told 
us that Adam does not mean a literal man, but the earth- 
ly constitution of all men. We replied, that, unless he 
violated all rules of sound interpretation, and used one part 
of the text figuratively and the other literally, he could 
derive no proof from this text. And if he gave a figura- 
tive interpretation to both parts, as he must, if he gave it 
to one part, then he rejected Christ from the world as a lit- 
eral being, and made him only a constitutional, undefined, 
and undefinable Christ. The gentleman has never met 



ON UNIVEKSALISIff. 157 

this objection, and it remains against him still in all its 
force. 

Another point in his proof from the resurrection, was: 
"It is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption; it 
is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. This corrupt- 
ible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on- 
immortality." The congregation can not have forgotten 
his insuperable difficulty on this point, on which his en- 
tire system relies for support. I showed that if he ap- 
plied the text to the soul, he must take the ground that the 
soul is mortal. There is no avoiding this. But he fore- 
stalled himself, by saying he believed in the immortality 
of the soul. I gave him the liberty to retract if he chose, 
but he dare not do it, for fear of farther disclosures. So 
this stands against him in all its force. We have chal- 
lenged him more than a half dozen times to meet this, but 
he has not touched it. I repeat, that if he applies this 
text to the soul, then he must maintain the mortality of 
the soul, and come out a Materialist; yea, an Atheist, 
The gentleman left it then, and there it remains as the 
eternal rock. And if[ had not adduced another partiefe 
of counter proof, this alone would annihilate and stand as- 
an eternal refutation of his system. 

The gentleman then adduced some other proof for to 
strengthen somewhat, his main proof, which he said was 
sufficient without any other; and from the numerous 
editions he gave us of it, we should be led to suppose that 
he, at least, thought it was sufficient. All his additional 
proof we examined. And you will recollect that we ask- 
ed him if we had passed by a single text without exami- 
nation. And he signified that we had not. But that we 
had not met them as he wished us to do. 

This, all will recollect, that yesterday, in the afternoon, 
and this morning, the gentleman, feeling the difficulty 
that he was in, and seeing the distress of his system, vir- 
tually abandoned his first position, notwithstanding his 
disclaimer to the contrary ; and hence if the sign was over 
our door yesterday, as intimated, he has taken it away 
and nailed it over his own. No one will forget, that in 
the tirst argument he adduced — and he repeated the same 



158 A DISCUSSION 

a great number of times — staked his entire system on the 
absolute power of God exerted in the resurrection. But he 
has now changed his ground entirely — virtually acknowl- 
edging that bis system cannot be sustained by such evi- 
dence; and takes the ground that all men are saved by the 
grace of God, in regeneration. It is clear to a demon- 
stration, if we are fitted for heaven by regeneration, or 
any thing else, it is not by the resurrection. 

We -have now reviewed the positions the gentleman 
took; and now pass to glance at some of tbe counter proof 
which we advanced. 

1st. We brought proof from the word of God, to show 
that He has not made man's future and eternal destiny to 
depend on the resurrection merely. 1. We showed that 
faith in this world, is a condition of eternal life; and quoted 
among others this text, — '*He that believeth on the Son, 
hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son 
shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him/' 
W r e have showed that everlasting life was the highest 
blessing that God promises to man in this, or the future 
world, and that it is inseparably connected with faith in 
this world. This counter proof rose with resistless force 
against all the gentleman could adduce on his affirma- 
tive. He glanced at it without attempting to refute the po- 
sition. 2. We advanced another class of Scriptures to 
show that men were required to reform — to break off 
from their sins by righteousness, and to evince a thor- 
ough reformation of conduct in this Kfe, as a condition 
and means of future happiness in heaven: but the gen- 
tleman never looked at this. All must recollect his per- 
fect silence on this point. 3. We showed that God had 
connected man's future and eternal destiny inseparably 
with the regeneration of his heart, by the Holy Spirit in 
this state of being, in this world, and his supreme love to 
Go J. But he never condescended to notice this part of 
our counter proof. 4. We showed that holiness of heart 
in this life^ is an indispensable condition of enjoying the 
favor of God in the future life. ''Without holiness no 
man shall see the Lord.' 9 

We showed conclusively that there was no way by 



ON UNIVERSE LISM. 15$ 

which men can be made partakers of God's holiness, but 
by repentance, reformation, faith and obedience, which re- 
sult in the regeneration of the heart, by the direct agency 
of the Holy Spirit, and in the entire sanctification of their 
nature, — And all this takes place in this world. And we 
challenged the gentleman to produce one solitary text to 
prove that any of these things took place in the future 
world. But the text was not adduced, and our proof re- 
mains untouched. 

2d. We then showed that the system we oppose an- 
nounces to man, that they may disbelieve the Bible, dis- 
believe in Jesus Christ, — may reject every truth of God 
revealed to man, — may reject the very existence of God 
himself, live and die in the most stubborn unbelief, in the 
darkest and most corrupt Atheism, and yet be as uncondi- 
tionally sure of heaven as if they were now wearing a 
crown of glory. This the system holds in direct opposi- 
tion, as we have shown, to what God requires of men in 
this life, that they believe in Him — in Jesus Christ — and 
in His revealed word, as condition and means of holiness, 
and happiness in the future and endless world. And we 
challenged the gentleman to deny this charge— but did he 
do it? No, verily! You are witnesses that he did not. 

3d. In opposition to what we proved from the Bible, that 
God required of men in this life, in order to enjoy future 
happiness in heaven, we showed that Universal ism main- 
tains that God does not require man to repent and reform 
in this life as a condition of happiness in the future world; 
but, that it tells men that they may live in falsehood, in 
perjury, in blasphemy, in seduction, in adultery, in piracy 
and robbery, in infidelity and idolatry, and all manner of 
wickedness, and then terminate their own life, and rush 
into eternity with this moral character, and yet be un- 
conditionally sure of heaven. 

4. In opposition to what we proved from the declara- 
tions of Scripture — that love to God and man, and holiness 
of heart in this life, are conditions of enjoying the favor 
of God in the future world, we proved that the system we 
oppose maintains, and announces to men. "You not only 
need not love God, but you may hate him with all your 






160 A DISCUSSION 



heart, mind and strength, — you may hate man with equal 
cnalignity of heart, and you may live in all the moral deg- 
radation and pollution of sin, and yet you are absolutely 
certain of being received into the highest favor of God ia 
the future world, and of enjoying his blessing throughout 
eternity." We challenged the gentleman to deny this, but 
he could not. 

We showed in our counter proof that Untversalism re- 
jects Jesus Christ to all intents and purposes, as a Savior, 

The gentleman staked his whole system on the power 
exerted in the resurrection. Now the Bible teaches that 
Jesus Chrsst is to raise the dead. And the system main- 
tains that Jesus Christ is a finite being. So on the gen- 
tleman's own ground, if we were to admit the soundness 
of his position, — that the resurrection is to effect all the 
change necessary to lit men for heaven, — for he admitted 
that Christ is the agent to raise the dead, we showed that he 
plunged himself into an inextricable difficuly here; for 
nothing short of Almighty power can raise the dead. And 
then we proved under a second head — that he had to dele- 
gate omnipotent power to Jesus Christ, to enable him to 
raise the dead. And the very moment that God should, 
if it were possible, delegate his omnipotence to another, he 
would cease himself to be omnipotent, and cease to be God., 
and the world would be involved in absolute Atheism. 
This the gentleman did not even attempt to meet. 

Again: to show that the gentleman's system does reject 
Jesus Christ, in his life, death, resurrection, and in all his 
characteristics as a Savior, and that it is the worst form of 
infidelity. We showed that Jesus Christ must save men 
from future punishment, or from the commission of sin in 
this life, or from the punishment of sin in this life. But our 
worthy friend said that men were never exposed to puiv 
ishment in the future world, consequently, Jesus Christ 
could not save them from a punishment they were never 
exposed to. Does he save men from sin in this world ? 
No, there are too many lamentable evidences to the con- 
trary, for any one to take this ground. Then there is but 
one way left in which Christ can be a Savior of man. ami 
that is from the punishment of sin in this world. Does 



ON TNIVERSALISM. 101 

t 

Christ save men from the punishment of sin in this world ? 
The gentleman says no. For he has told us repeatedly 
in this discussion that men are to be punished for every 
sin to its fullest desert in this world, Consequently, we 
have shown that Universalis^ does reject, to all intents and 
purposes, the Lord Jesus Christ, as a Savior, in every fea- 
ture of his character. And my friends; lest I might pos- 
sibly be mistaken, and it should not be a system of such 
gross infidelity as I have represented. 1 gave the gentle- 
man liberty to get alK the help he could Ircm his friends, 
and I have kept the system in this view, all the time before 
you, that it might be taken up at any time, and disposed of 
if possible; but the gentleman as you all see. has left his 
system to languish and expire under these accumulated 
calamities. 

We demonstrated that the system, the gentleman main- 
tains, could not be proved from the Bible,— that it contra- 
dicts the Bible. The Bible teaches that Jesus Christ holds 
the keys of heaven and hell. But his system maintains* 
that men have these keys in their own hands. It main* 
tains that it is perfectly optional with men whether ihey 
remain in hell in this world, for there is none elsewhere, 
or go to heaven, — that they may go to heaven just when 
they please. If men are tormented in this place of pun- 
ishment here and wish to get out, they can just turn the 
bolt with the key they have in their own hands, i. e. they 
may commit suicide and they are sure of heaven. 

Again, we showed in addition to this, that in opposition 
to the Bible, this system offered the highest reward for the 
most daring wickedness that could be committed in this 
world. You will recollect our explanation of the term re- 
ward. In proof of this, we quoted from the ^5th Ps, 
"bloody and deceitful men shall not live out half their 
days." Thus if a man were to live soberly, piously, and 
godly, he would live on to the common ajze of man, or 
twice as long in this world of affliction and pains and sor- 
row, as the bloody and deceitful man. For the bloody and 
deceitful man, in consequence of his hypocrisy, and mur- 
der, and wickedness of all kinds, would not live out half 
his days — he would leave this world of trouble and mis* 

14 



162 A DISCUSSION 

•* 

ery and go home to heaven, to the enjoyment of th« special 
presence of God. 

7. Here gentleman, judges 1 remarked in the conclu- 
sion of my counter proof: that a system that turned men 
loose in the world, free from all moral restraint, or obli- 
gation to God or man, with reference to their eternal des- 
tiny, a system that challenged men to employ all their pow- 
ers both physical and mental, in all the crimes and iniqui- 
ty possible for men to commit, and they could not in the 
least endanger their salvation in heaven — that put in the 
hands of men the keys of heaven and hell, and put in their 
hands the highest reward for the most daringcrimes under 
heaven. I remarked that that system could not be proved 
to be the doctrine of the Old and New Testaments. 

But the gentleman's affirmative holds all this. There- 
fore the Scripture of tho Old and New Testament do not 
sustain the affirmative of the question before us. 

1 will close my&remarks with adverting to the charges the 
gentleman has brought against me several times. I have 
said that his system teaches men, that they may cast off ail 
restraint, and go on in all manner of wickedness, and die 
suicides, and yet be unconditionally sure of heaven. He 
chooses to have it, that I charge their preachers with teach- 
ing this doctrine from the pulpit. And charges me with 
falsehood and slander, for making this charge. Now I am 
thankful that so much of this system has been developed 
before this community — that it has been shown that Uni- 
versalist preachers dare not preach their whole system. 
They designedly cover it up. But as to the charge of 
falsehood and slander, I leave this community to judge. 

And when Mr. Doolittle comes to Laporte to preach, if 
he does not preach what we have shown to be his true 
doctrine, 1 leave you to decide in what attitude he stands 
before you. And what I say of my friend, I say of all his 
brethern in the same work. When they cover up the vital 
principle of their system, I leave you to decide on their 
motives and character. 

I have not occupied all my time, I have a few moments 
left but will wave the use of them, feeling as far as my du- 



ON UNIVERSALIS*!. 163 

ty in presenting the negative of this question is concerned, 
1 have discharged it at least faithfully and honestly. 

[ Time expired. 

el doolittle's eighteenth, and closing speech on the 
first question.] 

My Friends. — I would gladly put on that charity that 
suffereth long and is kind, which thinketh no evil, and is 
not easily provoked; but I believe there may be such a 
thing as a stretch of this. I cannot, for the life of me, 
with all my charity, give my friend credit for all the sin- 
cerity he claims, in his sweeping charge he has brought 
against me. In relation to these charges, however, as 
the glove was thrown down and the challenge accepted by 
my friend Loring, I will give him over without the bene- 
fit of clergy to him, to be dealt with as he sees fit. 

But we will say, if his conscience does not condemn 
him for his false statements, which he has so often repeat- 
ed, his moral sense must be very much blunted. 

While the gentleman was making his charges, with so 
much zeal, I could not help thinking of the declaration 
of the Apostle about those who oppose the truth. That 
they spoke evil of the things they did not understand; 
that they were spots and blemishes, sporting themselves 
with their own deceivings; wells without water; clouds 
carried about with the tempest, speaking great swelling 
words of vanity; raging waves of the sea foaming out 
their own shame. I could not help thinking how well 
ihis garment fitted our friend Power. Now, Michael when 
contending with the adversary, dare not bring a rail- 
ing accusation against him, bat said, the "Lord rebuke 
i hee." So I simply say, the Lord rebuke thee, friend Pow- 
er, and forgive thee, for I verily believe thou hast sinned 
against light and knowledge. For our friend cannot be 
ignorant of our principles, having held eight or ten con- 
troversies of several days each time, with some of the 
strong advocates of our system, who laid before him 
the true doctrines which we hold. And hence, when he 
comes before you and makes such sweeping charges as 



16-1 A DISCUSSION 

these, that we tell men they may steal, rob, murder, &c, 
and finally commit suicide, and yet be sure of heaven; 
and that we promise them the brightest reward for so do- 
ing, he knows he says that which is utterly false. There 
is not a man in the house, who is intelligent, and has any 
information on this matter, who does not know that these 
statements are false. 

1 come now to the summing up of my arguments; and 
1 do not design to detain you long. 

1st. You will recollect that thus far, my motive has 
been to sustain this position, viz: that all rational and 
moral beings, who compose the entire human race in this 
world, will, in the immortal state of being, be holy and 
happy, and saved with an everlasting salvation. And my 
first argument on this point was predicated on the glori- 
ous doctrine of the resurrection of all men to a state of 
incorruption and glory, and immortalky, through our 
Lord Jesus Christ. And my friend has repeatedly charg- 
ed me with denying that the salvation of man was effec- 
ted through Jesus Christ; and predicated it on a myste- 
rious, undefmable something. And, in his last speech, 
said that [ had not attempted to touch this point, when I 
had repeatedly showed you the falsity of it. We showed 
that this glorious change would be effected through Jesus 
Christ, the Savior of the world. 

With respect to this argument of the resurrection, you- 
will all remember that our friend taxed all his powers 
and ingenuity, and skill in evasion, to show that the- 
change effected in the resurrection, wasonly a physical 
change, aOecting the body only, and has no reference to- 
the moral condition of the soul in a state of immortality. 
And consequently, the sinner who lives and dies in his 
sins, though his body may be raised immortal and pure, 
yet the soul, connected with this pure body, may be as cor- 
rupt as it ever was before death. Now our position was 
just the reverse of this — that when the whole intelligent 
creation of God shall be clothed upon with immortality 
and incorruption, that they will not be there with pure, 
bodies without souls to inhabit them, but that their souls 
will partake of the same nature of their glorified bodies, 



ON UNIVERSALISM. 165 

i 

and that soul and body, in connection, shall be free from 
sin and pollution. And to show you that the change, 
wrought at this time, is such as we have described, we 
quoted this language: "The creature itself shall be deliv- 
ered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious 
liberty of the children of God." And as farther confir- 
mation, I cited you to the declaration of the Apostle: "So 
when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and 
this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be 
brought to pass the saying that is written, death is swal- 
lowed up in victory. With this song of glorious triumph, 
"O! death, where is thy sting? 0! grave, where is thy 
victory?' 5 Now will immortal bodies, without souls, thus 
shout the song of triumph, in this manner? Remember, 
our friend says this change is confined to the body. But 
are there no souls here in connection with these bodied 
It is folly to deny it. And to show still more conclusive- 
ly that this is a moral change, Paul adds: "The sting of 
death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law. But 
thanks be to God who giveth us the victory through our 
Lord Jesus Christ." This shows, most clearly, that this 
change is both moral and physical. Again: the fact is 
further confirmed by the Apostle in this chapter, for he 
contrasts man's state in this life with what it shall be in a 
future life, in reference to this he says: "As we have 
borne the image of the earthly, we shall also bear the 
image of the heavenly," and, "as in Adam all die, even 
so in Christ, shall all be made alive." Now from the 
same death which all die in Adam, all shall be made alive 
in Christ. Hence, says the eminent Albert Barnes, in his 
notes on this chapter, "If we grant that this death in Ad- 
am is a moral death, and that from such a death, all are 
made alive in Christ, we throw into the hands of Univer- 
salists an argument that is irrefutable." And did not our 
friend subscribe to this — "In Adam's fall we sinned all," 
that all were born with a corrupt nature in consequence 
of the sin of Adam? Hence, as Mr. Barnes says he throws 
into our hands an irrefutable argument. And I would 
say that we had this argument whether he is willing to 
put it into our hands or not. 

*14 



166 A DISCUSSION 

What has the gentleman done toward taking hold of 
these strong arguments? If he has grappled with them 
at all, it is with an infant's grasp. He took this chain on 
his anvil and struck it with his hammer, and all that he 
found vas ore crocked link, according to his own ac- 
count of it, and that he could not break \ the chain, there- 
fore, remains whole. 

And. further; why did he not take hold on this expres- 
sion of Paul, "0! death, where is thy sting? O! grave, 
where is thy victory. The sting of death is sin, but the 
strength of sin is the law. But thanks be to God who 
giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ,^ 
and show that this did not prove a resurrection of the 
soul to purify and peace, as well as the body. 

Again: how does he dispose of Christ's answer to the 
Sadducees? He says, "But they which shall be account- 
ed worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from 
the dead, neither marry nor are given in rnarriage.' 5 '-^ 
This, our friend says, has reference to their physical re- 
lations. But is this all that- Christ says about them in 
this state? Hear him. "Neither can they die any more, 
for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children 
of God being the children of the resurrection." What 
language can more fully express their moral condition in 
the future world, and that ail that are raised in the res- 
urrection will be holy and happy? And yet our friend 
telis us that the greater part of these will be subject to 
eternal misery, in a state of immortality. 

The argument drawn from the resurrection is plain to 
all, and our friend sees it, but he wants to get round it, 
but this he cannot do. I told him in the start, that this 
argument should haunt himjiuring this discussion, and I 
mean it shall. 

My friend accused me, when ever I attempted to bring 
any other argument but this, of turning a somerset, of 
abandoning toy position, as if I could bring no other ar- 
gument in addition to this, without abandoning it? I 
fold you that I was willing to rest my argument on this 
alone for support. But we have other arguments as 
strong as holy writ can make them, besides this. 



ON UNIVERSALIS^. 167 

2nd. The next argument I brought forward, was that 
predicated upon the sovereign will and purpose of God; 
showing that it was God's will and purpose that all men 
shall be saved, and that his purpose can never be set 
aside. On this I quoted Ephes. i. 8 — 10. "Wherein he 
hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; 
having made known unto us the mystery of his will, 
according to his good pleasure, which he hath purposed 
in himself: that in the dispensation of the fulness of times 
he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both 
which are in heaven, and which are on earth.' 5 The 
phrase here used, according to Prof. Stuart, is astrong 
expression to denote the whole intelligent universe, who 
will be gathered together in Christ. Therefore, God-, 
v» r ho worketh all things according to the counsel of his 
own will, and who does his will in the armies of heav- 
en, and whose arm, when stretched out, no power can 
turn back, has proclaimed that it is his will to bring back 
to Christ every son and daughter of Adam. 

What did our friend Power do with this argument? — * 
Nothing. It still remains against him in all its force. 

3d. Our next argument was predicated on Romans v, 
Here we are informed that all are sinners. "Wherefore 
as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by 
sin; and so death passed upon all men, forViai all have 
sinned," "But not as the offence," he says, "so also is 
the free gift. For if through the offence of one many 
be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by 
grace, w r hich is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded 
unto many. And not as it was by one that sinned, so is 
the gift. For judgment was by one to the condemna- 
tion." The antithesis is kept^up all through here, ma- 
king it as plain as language can make it,— and this is the 
strongest way possible to express it, that the gift is as 
great as the offence, that all who are condemned on ac- 
count of sin, which includes the whole human race, shall 
be justified through Jesus Christ. "For if by one man's 
offence death reigned by one; much more they which re- 
ceive abundance of grace, and of the gift of righteous- 
ness, shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ. Therefore, 



188 A DISCUSSION 

by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to con- 
demnation, even so by the righteousness of one the free gift 
came upon all men unto justification of life. For as by 
one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by 
the obedience of one shall many (the same many) be made 
righteous. That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so 
might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal 
life, by Jesus Christ our Lord." "The reign of grace 
shall be as extensive as the reign of sin, as Dr. Adam 
Clarke says, "and death is conquered, hell is disappoint- 
ed, the devil confounded, and sin destroyed;" and then he 
shouts "Halleluiah! the Lord God omnipotent reigneth! 
Amen, and Amen." And we shouted Amen, and called 
upon our friend Power to shout Amen. 

4th. Our next argument was predicated on the testimo- 
ny of Paul, as recorded in Phil. ii. 9 — 11. "Wherefore 
God hath also highly exalted him, and given him a name 
which is above every name: that at the name of Jesus ev- 
ery knee should bow, oUhings in heaven, and things in 
earth, and things under the earth; and that every tongue 
should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of 
God the Father." 

This submission to Christ was to be brought about by the 
Holy Ghost, and it proves universal submission to his gov- 
ernment. And parallel to this is the passage in Isa. xlv, 
23, "I havesworn by myself, the word has gone out of my 
mouth in righteousness and shall not return, that unto me 
every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. Surely 
shall say in the Lord have 1 righteousness and strength.' y 
And this declaration of Jehovah is absolute; it has no con- 
dition. 

5. Again: we pointed you to the final consummation of 
the matter, as revealed to the Revelator on the Isle of 
Patmos, recorded in the 5th Chap, of Revelations. "And 
I beheld," says he, "and L heard the voice of many angels 
round about the throne, and the beasts, and the elders : 
and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thou- 
sand, and thousands of thousands; Saying with a loud 
voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive pow- 
er, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honor, and 



ON raiVERSALISM. 161? 

glory, and blessing.'' But remember this wa3 not Uni- 
versaiism. This might all be and still only the doctrine of 
our Methodist friends be true. But revelation does not 
stop here, it goes farther, and what does he next see and 
hear ? "And every creature which is in heaven, and on 
the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, 
and all that are in them, heard I saying, blessing, and 
honor, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth up- 
on the throne, and unto the Lamb, for ever and ever." 
Now this may include all living creatures , but it is impos- 
sible to restrict it to any thing less than all rational crea- 
tures. 

Now if these arguments and these Scriptures, and many 
more which we might adduce, do not prove our position, 
then no argument or testimony brought from the Bible 
can prove any doctrine whatever. All these arguments 
have been made so plain, that every individual of common 
understanding must see their force, and admit that they 
cannot be destroyed. 

Our friend tells us that we put no dependence on faith 
and good works. But with respect to these charges, I told 
you I would leave him to our friend Loring. 

I tell you that we do believe that reformation, faith, 
and good works, are all attended with good consequences. 
But we do not believe that God has fixed man's immortal 
destiny on any thing that he can perform here. Man's 
immortal destiny is controled by a higher power. We 
shail^be saved in a state of immortality through Jesus 
Christ by the grace of God, and not by our good works. 

With these remarks 1 leave the matter with you. And 
• I hope that you may be enabled to treasure up in good 
and honest hearts, the testimony we have adduced, and 
give it all that serious consideration ^it deserves. I do not 
want you to take my saying on this subject as the truth 
without examination. Nor to believe all my friend's 
assertions without examination. He has often tried 
to lead me from the subject, but never for more than five 
minutes at a time have I left my main point. And I have 
frequently reminded my friend of his wandering, but have 
not been able to keep him to the question. But I hope now 
as vve change the subject, he will keep more to the point* 



170 A DISCUSSION 

Here the Moderators announced to the audience that 
the disputants would take up for investigation the follow- 
ing question : 

" Do the Scriptures of the Old and New Testament 
teach that any portion of the human race will suffer end- 
less misery in a state of immortality." 

Mr. Power will affirm and Mr. Doolittle will deny. 

[mr. power's first speech.] 

Gentlemen Moderators and the Audience. — I arise to 
commence my remarks on the second question proposed 
for investigation in this debate; oil which I hold the attir- 
mative. And will make a few general remarks before 
we take up the question particularly. And first I will im- 
pose no duty on you to restrain my worthy opponent from 
attacking my views from any point he sees fit, or by any 
arguments, or proof drawn from the sacred records. I 
throw open the whole field without any restraint. Secondly, 
as I observed in the commencement of the discussion, that 1 
did not, on the invitation of my Universalist friend come 
here merely for display of empty declamation, or for theo- 
logical speculation, but in the fear of God, to make this in- 
vestigation profitable to this congregation. I have been 
governed by this principle thus far, and shall still be, as 1 
have to answer at the bar of God. 

We shall therefore undertake to establish on the authori- 
ty of the word of God, that he as sovereign of the universe, 
has established a perfect system of moral government, — 
and that men by obeying, or rebelling against this govern- 
ment, decide their destiny for this and for the future world. 
In establishing this position, we will endeavor to show 
that God will fix the case of men for eternity according 
to their moral character : and that such as avail them- 
selves of the provisions of the Gospel, and possess that, 
moral character that God requires of all his creatures, will 
be the subjects of eternal life in heaven : And that those 
who disregard the provisions of God's moral Government 
and persist in the violation of His commands through life, 
and enter eternity in this state, will have no change effect- 



ON UNIVERSALIS!*, 171 

ed in their moral character after death, and will be the 
subjects of endless misery in the eternal world. 

This is the general ground that we intend to occupy 
during the discussion of this question. We make this 
proposition — God is an infinite being; infinite in all his 
attributes and perfections; and is revealed to the world un- 
der the glorious distinction of Father, Word, and Holy 
Spirit; and that in view of all facts and contingencies 
connected with aWltime and eternity, He saw fit to create- 
man an intelligent subject of a moral government, and es- 
tablish such a government, and require man to^conform to 
it. 

The gentleman, we presume, will not dispute this pro- 
position. If he does, he will have to contend that man is 
not a subject of moral government — and must meet all the 
consequences following such an assumption. 

Farther under this head, the infinite wisdom of God, 
has placed man under a moral government precisely adap- 
ted to his condition, in all circumstances, and in all his re- 
lations, both to man and his Maker. Mr. D. w r e appre- 
hend will not deny this. 

Man as a subject of this moral government under which 
infinite w r isdom has placed him, has revealed in the Bible, 
all the duties, means, and conditions to be observed, to se- 
cure to him the favor of his Maker. 

My friend has conceded that the Bible holds out the 
claim of God for obedience on the part of man in this 
world, hence it only remains for me to prove that this 
claim for obedience involves man's condition in the future 
world. 

We mean to name the points specifically throughout 
this discussion, on which the arguments are to bear, and 
intend to keep them prominent, so that the gentleman will 
have no difficulty in understanding them. 

The point now to be proved is, that the Goverment of 
God, which requires men to obey, as revealed in the Bi- 
ble, involves his future condition as well as the present. 
In proof we quote Matt. vi. 19,20. This is a declaration 
of God, enjoining man'sduty and interest. And we cite it 
to prove that those duties have reference to man's end* 



172 A DISCUSSION 

less condition, and therefore God's claims, involve man's 
condition in this and in the future world. " Lay not up 
for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust 
doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal: 
But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where 
neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do 
not break through nor steel. ? ' This declaration contrasts 
man's interests on earth, with his interests in heaven; and 
this is a specific revelation of God to man, as a principle 
to govern his faith and practice. It proves that man is, 
by the grace of God to lay up for himself treasures for 
the eternal world, in opposition to the transitory charac- 
ter of earth and earthly objects. 

Here man's future destiny is taken into the account, and 
his responsibility and agency are brought to view, and re- 
quired by the Almighty, with reference to his future end- 
less state. 

For the same object, we cite Horn, vi. 21 — 23. "What 
fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now a- 
shamed? for the end of those things is death. But now- 
being made free from sin, and become servants of God, 
ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting 
life. For the wages of sin is death : but the gift of God 
is eternal life, through Jesus Christ our Lord." Here it 
is shown that God's plan of government, and administra- 
tion toward men, includes the necessity of holiness — be- 
ing made free from sin; and that the result of this on the 
part of man is everlasting life. This life commence? 
here and extends into the eternal world. 

That you may see how man attains this freedom from 
sin; and that you may recognize his responsibility in this 
case, and see that it has reference to this eternal condition, 
we refer to Titus ii. 11 — 15. " For the grace of God 
that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, teaching 
us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should 
live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; 
looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing 
of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ; who gave 
himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, 
and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of 



'ON tWIVERSALSlM. 173 

good works. These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke 
with all authority. Let no man despise ihee." Mere the 
only condition on which men may be freed from sin, and 
prepared for everlasting life, — for this hos special refer- 
ence to man's future destiny — is, that they deny ungodli- 
ness and worldly lusts, and live soberly and righteously, 
and godly in this present world. 

Again: 2 Cor. iv. 1-6. "Therefore, seeing we have this 
ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not; But 
have renounced the hidden things ofdi>honesty; not walk- 
ing in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitful- 
ly ; but, by manifestation of the truth, commending our- 
selves to every man's conscience in the sight of God. But 
if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost : In 
whom the God of this world hath blinded the minds of them 
w r hich believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of 
Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. 
For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord ; 
and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake. For God 
who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath 
shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of 
the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ." We read 
from the same chapter, explanatory of the provisions and 
requirements of the gospel, — mark this is the teaching of 
the gospel. The last three verses show that this has ref- 
erence to our eternal destiny. "For which cau?e we faint 
not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward 
man is renewed day by day. For our light affliction, 
which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more ex- 
ceeding and eternal weight of glory ; while we Sook not 
-at the things which are seen, but at the things which are 
not seen, for the things which are seen are temporal ; but 
the things which are not seen are eternal." You see with 
reference to the character of the righteous, that God's 
claim commences on him in this v\or!d, and extends to and 
involve his condition in the future world. 

We now proceed to show that the same doctrine is 
taught with reference to the unbeliever, the ungodly, that 
the claims of God rest upon him in his and the future 
world, and that his conduct here ha* an influence on his 

15 



174 A DISCUSSION 

future destiny. Let us keep in view the point— that we 
are adducing proof from the Bible to show that God's mor- 
al government holds man responsible in the future world 
for his conduct in this world. 

On this point we quote, Matth. x. 27, 28, "What I tell 
you in darkness, that speak ye in light, and what ye hear 
in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops. And fear 
not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the 
soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul 
and body in hell." 

The application of this text is that it includes, first the 
condition of the body throughjife, and at death, and also, 
the condition of the soul after death, and teaches that if it 
leaves the body without the proper character, it is to be 
destroyed in an endless hell. Again : Matth. xii. 31,£32 r 
"Wherefore 1 say unto you, all manner of sin and blas- 
phemy shall be forgiven unto men, but the blasphemy «- 
gainst the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. 
And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it 
shall be forgiven him : but whosoever speaketh against the 
Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this 
world, neither in the world to come." 

This is the declaration of Jesus, with reference to God's 
moral clakn on man, including his obligation to obedience 
through life, and showing that in this world he fixes his 
destiny for the future world. 

Those who blaspheme the Holy Ghost shall not be for- 
given in this world, nor in the future world. The gen- 
tleman may tell us perhaps that this world means the 
Jewish dispensation, and the world to come means the 
Christian dispensation. But no sound critisism can make 
this passage mean thus. Moreover, Mark explains it, 
Mark, iii. 28, 29, "Verily, 1 say unto you, all sins shall 
be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies where- 
withsoever they shall blaspheme : But he that shall 
blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, 
but is in danger of eternal damnation." Here during pre- 
cisely the same length of time that the promise of life is to 
be enjoined by the believer, it is said that the blasphemer 
against the Holy Ghost shall not have forgiveness. He that 






ON TJX IVERSALISM. 175 

believeth is made free from sin by the sanctifying influ- 
ence of the Holv Spirit, and has life eternal in heaven. 
But he that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost, shall 
live just as long, excluded from the presence of God and 
from heaven, — he is in danger of eternal damnation. For 
farther proof, see Mark ix. 43 — 48. When the Redeem- 
er proclaimed that those who do not cast off from them- 
selves those things that offend — their sins; are in danger 
of being cast into hell, into the fire that shall never be 
quenched. 

The last passage I shall quote in proof of this fact, that 
God's moral government, requires of men duties in this 
life which involve their destiny in the future world, is 
Heb. ix. 27. "And as it is appointed unto men once to 
die, but after this the judgment." In this state of being 
God holds men responsible to his government. And this 
text teaches that after they leave this world, God brings 
them before his bar, to fix their destiny according to the 
moral character with which they enter the future world; 

We have here presented two classes of Scripture. And 
they are only specimens of a cloud of witnesses which 
the word of God furnishes on each of these heads, recog- 
nizing man's moral accountability in the world to come 
for his conduct in this life, and that man's moral charac- 
ter in the future world, on God's plan, is formed in this 
state of being. The righteous while on earth may lay- 
up treasures in heaven, where they will be enduring. 
And their light afflictions in this life, work out for them 
a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory, in the 
future world. And there they will be saved, and enjoy the 
favor of God forever, as a consequence of their love and 
obedience in this life. But those who live in unbelief, 
and in hatred to God, and in blasphemy in this life, shall 
never have forgiveness, but are in danger of eternal dam- 
nation. We remark again, that we have not cited this 
passage to prove the length or duration of the happiness 
or misery of man in the future world, but the fact that 
God holds man responsible in the world to come, for his 
conduct in the present world. [Time expired. 






176 a discussion 

[mr. doolilttle's first reply.] 

Gentlemen Moderators and the Audience. — I hope, thaf 
during the remainder of this discussion, you will not, 
for a moment, lose sight of the point raised on the ques- 
tion which has been announced. The question is not 
whether men are to be punished in this world for sin — 
this I do not deny — but will any portion of the human 
race suffer endless punishment in a state of immortality. 
It devolves on our friend to prove, from the Bible, that a 
portion will suffer endless misery, and we to disprove- 
this, and show that the Scriptures do not teach such a doc- 
trine. And I now pledge myself to examine all his im- 
portant testimony with the closest scrutiny, I design not 
to pass over a single text. For we are all equally inter- 
ested in this matter, and if the Scriptures do teach such 
a doctrine as our friend affirms they do, we all wish to 
know it. 

That man is a subject of God's moral government here, 
and will be hereafter, and that God's government extends 
over all beings. I perfectly admit. 

The first passage the gentleman quoted, was from Matth. 
vi. 19—20. "Lay not up for yourselves treasures, &c. , '" 
Now I would ask what proof is here furnished that a 
part of the human race will suffer endless punishment in 
a state of immortality? It is the last passage that I should 
have thought of, and has no reference, as I can see to the 
question before us, therefore, I let it pass. The next text 
was from Rom vi. 21 — 23. But this, like the first, says 
nothing about endless punishment. There is something 
said about everlasting life, which we believe in, but no- 
thing is said about endless misery. This, then, furnish- 
es no proof. The next text was from Titus ii. 11 — 15. 
This teaches that it is the object of Christ to purify men,, 
and prepare them for the blessed hope and gJorious ap- 
pearing which they were looking for. But this is no, 
proof of endless misery. 

Again: he quoted 2d Cor. iv. 1 — 6. This passage re- 
quires a little looking to,, not because it contains any 
proof, but because many have overlooked,. its meaaing^ 






ON UNI VERBALISM. 177 

"But if our Gospel be hid," says the Apostle, "it is hid 
to them that are lost." Mark, it says it is hid from them 
that are lost in the present tense. Now, who are lost, 
and in what sense are they lost? Why those are lost to 
whom the Gospel is not preached. The Gospel had been 
preached to some, whiie they were walking in dishonesty, 
in sin and darkness, and they had turned to the light. 
But some to whom the Gospel had been preached did not 
believe. It was hid to them, and they were still in dark- 
ness. In this sense they were*Iost.1 But does this text say, 
they are to be lost eternally ? and punished forever in the 
immortal and future world ? By no means. And mark 
you, it was the lost that Christ came to seek and to save, 
it was those from whom the Gospel was hid, that he came 
to save. Now, if our friend will show that Christ will 
not find those he came to seek and save, then we will al- 
low that this is good proof for him, but not before. 

The next passage is found in Matth. x. 27, 28. "Fear 
not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the 
soul; but rather fear him which is able to destroy both 
soul and body in hell." Now, suppose for the sake of the 
argument, that we admit that these words are to be tak- 
on in a strict literal sense, — do they prove the endless 
punishment of any portion of the human race in a state 
of immortality ? The literal construction of this text, 
will prove the annihilation of some, but it will not prove 
their endless preservation in punishment — it proves the 
annihilation of both soul and body? But will our friend 
contend for this literal construction? And if we say that 
the body only is to be destroyed in hell, which amounts to 
annihilation, then only the soul would exist to be punish- 
ed. Now the gentleman will not admit this, because it 
would rob him of all his glory with respect to this text, 
for he brings it forward to prove that some will be punish- 
ed eternally, both soul and body. All can see the ab- 
surdity of giving this passage a literal interpretation. 
But I present another difficulty still. The gentleman has 
admitted that all men, the entire human race, would be 
raised to a state of immortality, and would possess im- 
mortal and incorruptible bodies. 

15* 



179 A DISCtfSStOft 

Now, can these bodies be subject to destruction?' tat* 
possible, in the nature of things; because God cannot des- 
troy what is immortal and incorruptible. Again: here is 
another difficulty, even admitting that God has the power 
to annihilate both soul and body, which must result from' 
the literal construction of this passage, does it follow that 
he will thus exercise this power? Has He ever revealed 
to us that it is His pleasure or purpose to annihilate the 
soul and body? All the text says is, "Fear Him which' 
us able ^ who has power "to destroy both soul and body in 
bell." It does not affirm that He will do it. 

But many difficulties will cluster around this passage, 
rmd here ts> another, hell does not mean a place in the fu- 
ture world. The word here translated hell, is Gehenna* 
fir Adam Clarke explains the use of this term, as em- 
ployed in Matth. v. 22. * It is composed of two words," he 
says, "first taken from the Hebrew, Ghi Hinnom. It 
means the valley of the son of Hinnom, a place south of 
Jerusalem, formerly used for those abominable sacrifices 
in which the idolatrous Jews had caused their children to 
pass through the fire to Molock." So you can see that 
this term used here, does not mean a place in the future 
world, and that this passage has no reference at all to the 
future world. You will be satisfied when you understand 3 
the object of the Savior's discourse here. He was warning 
his disciples to fear the earthly tribunals, and those who" 
were seeking to destroy them. And he would especially 
warn them to fear the highest power, the Sanhedrim, for 
they had power, not only to take their lives, but to con- 
demn their bodies to be burnt in Gehenna, or to burn them 
ilive, destroying both the soul (or animal life, which the 
term rendered soul here means,) and body in Gehenna, hell.- 
Dr. Clarke tells us there were, according to the Jewish 
religion and laws, three kinds of offences, which excelled 
each other in degrees of guilt. For the first, the judg- 
ment; the council of twenty three, could inflict the punish- 
ment of strangling; second, the Sanhedrim, or great coun- 
cil, could inflict the punishment of stoning; and for the 
third offence, they could condemn them to be burnt alive 
in the valley of the son of Hinnom. The power that 



ON UNIVERSALIS!*. 



179 



could burn them in the valley of the son of Hinnom, the 
Savior warned his disciples especially to fear. This is the 
meaning of the text, and all it refers to. It has no refer- 
ence to the future world. And I challenge the gentleman 
and all Christendom, to show that the words generally 
translated hell, in the Bible, originally had reference to 
a local place of punishment beyond the grave. This chal- 
lenge has been repeatedly made before now, but the author- 
hies have never been exhibited, and for a very good reason, 
they are not to be found. 

The next text quoted was from Mark, iii. 28, 29, con* 
cerning the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost. Now if 
the phrases, this world, and the world to come, mean what 
we generally understand them to mean, i. e. it this world 
means the earth, on which we dwell, and the world to 
come means the eternal world, and if this passage means 
those who blaspheme are never to be forgiven while they 
live on this earth, nor in the immortal state after death — 
then our friend makes out something from this passage. 
But unfortunately for him, these phrases mean no such 
thing. And here as a parallel passage, with reference to 
the same subject, I wish to read Dr. Clarke's comments, 
Which perfectly accord with my views. I quote him be- 
cause he expresses just what I believe on this subject, and 
then you hear his views in connection with mine, Matth. 
xii.32. I read a part of his remarks on the phrase. Nei- 
ther in this world. Neither in the world to come. "Though 1 ' 
he says, "I follow the common translation, yet I am fully 
satisiied the meaning of the words are, neither in this dis- 
pensation, (viz the Jewish,) nor in that which is to come, 
viz. the Christian." Olam ha-bo, [Hebrew words,] the 
world to come, is a constant phrase for the times of the 
Messiah, in the Jewish writers. The sin here spoken of 
by our Lord, ranks high in the catalogue of presumptuous 
sins, for which there was no forgiveness under the Mosaic 
dispensation, see Num. xv. 30, 31, and xxxv. 3 1 , Lev. xx. 
10, Sam. ii. 25. When our Lord says that such a sin 
hath no forgiveness, is he not to be understood as meaning 
that the crime shall be punished under the Christian dis- 
pensation, as it was under the Jewish, viz. by the des- 



180 A DISCUSSION 

tructionof the body. And is not this the same mention- 
ed I John i. 7, called the sin unto death i. e. a sin that 
was to be punished by the death of the body, while mercy 
might be extended to the soul. The punishment of pre- 
sumptuous sins, under the Jewish law, to which our Lord 
evidently alludes certainly did not extend to the damna- 
tion of the soul though the body was destroyed; therefore 
I think that though there was no such forgiveness to be 
extended to this crime, as to absolve the man from the 
punishment of temporal death yet on repentance mercy 
might be extended to the soul, and every sin may be re- 
pented of under the Gospel dispensation. Now this is a 
rational criticism, and with him several Orthodox com- 
mentators perfectly agree. Now for the gentleman to 
make out any thing from this text it will devolve on him to 
show that it proves that the blasphemer's soul will be pun- 
ished eternally. \ Time expired. 

[mr. power's second speech.] 

[This speech, and the one following, occupy but fifteen 
minutes each.] 

Gentlemen Moderators : — First, we remind you, as nam- 
ed specifically when we introduced this subject, that the 
proof we adduced was to establish the point, that God's 
system of moral government involved man's interests in 
this and in the future world. That it promises happiness 
to the obedient, which he cannot fully enjoy in this state 
of being ; and threatens misery to the disobedient, which 
he cannot fully experience in this world. This is the 
point under consideration. The gentleman, as we are 
aware, would like to have us confined to a very narrow 
compass. But we remind you of the practical character 
of this discussion, that we desire to make it profitable, and 
not to confine it to mere abstract speculations. 

He seems to make peace again with Dr. Clarke. But, 
we shall pay but little attention to any other authority, 
than the Bible. And his going to the Dr., shows that he 
feels the need of help. 

Mr. D., in his remarks on Matt. x. 27, 28, says, if the 



ON TOIVERSALISaf. 18 1 

lext be taken literally, it would prove annihilation, and 5 
this we would not wish to have it prove. He need not 
fear. We do not intend to prove annihilation. He says 
the term translated hell here, originally meant the valley 
of the son of Hinnom, south of Jerusalem. This may be 
true ; but the word had come to mean, and the Jews so- 
understood it, in the time of Christ, the place of punish- 
ment for the wicked in the future world. This he wilt 
not deny. And we have, too, the authority of his friend, 
Dr. Clarke, on this. 

Now, the Savior knew that the Jews so understood this 
term ; and we have no instance recorded that He ever 
charged them with error, or attempted to correct their 
opinion on this point, but that He used it, knowing that 
they did so understand the term, and would take Him to 
mean the place of punishment in the future world. 

Our friend said, " many difficulties cluster aroundUhis 
passage. " And so he will find, as we proceed. 

The term gehenna, (hell,) was understood by the Jews 
to be the place of future punishment, and this doctrine of 
theirs was endorsed by the Lord Jesus Christ. This, if 
he has any knowledge of the history of that age, he can- 
not deny. 

But he made a mistake here, that is fatal to his posi- 
tion. He said the Redeemer had just been exhorting his 
disciples to fear the persecution of the higher authorities 
among the Jews; those tribunals that could take their 
life, and especially that tribunal that could burn their bod- 
ies, after death, in the valley of the son of Hinnom. But 
this is a palpable mistake. It is just the reverse of the 
fact. The Savior, truly, had been speaking of the perse- 
cutions to which the disciples would be subjected; but does 
he exhort them to fear their persecutors? *o, — u Fear 
them not," is his exhortation. But He tells them whom 
they are to fear— Him, who had power to assign the final- 
ly impenitent to a region of hopeless misery. Instead of 
telling us to fear men, the Bible expressly tells us not to 
fear men. God says, "the fear of the Lord is the begin- 
ing of wisdom,'* and " the fear of man bringeth a snare/* 
Christ then would warnahem, not to fear the rage of men* 



182 A DISCUSSION 

for all they could do would be to kilt the body ; but to fear 
the object of all christians' fear and worship, Him who i& j 
able to, and will, administer his government faithfully, 
and reward all the righteous, but punish all the finally 
impenitent in hell. 

Another difficulty into which my friend has fallen, is, 
that the soul here means the animal life, and not the im- 
mortal spirit of man. Well, according to this, the Redeem- 
er says, "fear not them which can kill the body — (does 
not this include the animal life?) — but fear some power 
that can destroy the animal life" Here you see that the 
gentleman, in trying to avoid my application of the text, 
has fallen into a real absurdity. We would like to know 
what that animal life is, that can be destroyed after the 
body is dead ? Perhaps our friend can inform us? But 
this is not the only difficulty he is involved in. He must 
confine his position here to the strictly literal interpreta- 
tion of the passage, or he must allow its figurative signifi- 
cation. He may take just which he pleases. If he takes 
it figuratively, he yields all we wish. But if he under- 
stands it strictly in its literal sense, then the text can have 
no reference to any person on earth, except those who 
lived when the fire was literally burning in the valley, and 
can have nothing to do with any one in the present gen- 
eration. [15 Minutes expired. 

[mr. doolittle's second reply.] 

Now, while your attention is on this passage about the 
destruction of the soul and body, I want to convince youv 
my friends, that it is some other power besides the God and 
Father of our spirits, that the Savior is warning his disci- 
ples to fear. All has reference to the Jewish tribunals, 
and this is evident from the language. And here I will 
read several verses in connection, and let you be your own 
judges on the language. I say it shows that God was not 
the one to be feared. "And ye shall be hated of all men 
for my name's sake, but he that endureth to the end shall 
be saved. But when they persecute in this city, flee ye 
into another, for verily I say unto you, ye shall not have 



ON UKIVERSALISM. IBS 

gone over the cities of Israel, until the son of man be come, 
The disciple is rfot above his master, nor the servant above 
his Lord. It is enough for the disciple that he be as his 
master, and the servant as his Lord. If they have called 
the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall 
they call them of his household ? Fear them not, there- 
fore, for there is nothing covered that shall not be reveal- 
ed, and hid that shall not be known. What I tell you in 
darkness, that speak ye in light, and what ye hear in the 
i ear, that preach ye on the house tops. And fear not them 
! which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul, but 
rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body 
in hell." And now, to show you more particularly that 
the Savior does not warn them here to fear God, he adds: 
" Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing ? and not one 
of them shall fall on the ground without your Fath- 
er. But the very hairs of your head are all number- 
ed. Fear ye not therefore; ye are of more value than 
i many sparrows." 

Here the Savior tells them in plain language, not to fear 
\ their heavenly Father. Now, would he tell them almost 
i with the same breath, to fear Him ? Here we know he is 
J speaking of God, and he expressly tells his disciples not 
J to fear Him. But when he says, " rather fear Him who is 
I able to destroy both soul and body in hell," he uses no ap- 
pellation to signify that he means the Father ; and from 
; what he says immediately after, that they should not fear 
the Father, we must be led to conclude that the former 
j passage has no reference to the Father, but to some other 
power — to the Sanhedrim, To this power they would be 
( particularly obnoxious ; and they were to fear them. For 
\ this power could condemn them to be burned in Tophet, as 
the worst of malefactors — a most disgraceful death. Here 

!I would have my friend Power mark, that the word here 
rendered soul, is not the word generally rendered spirit. 
It is the same word that is rendered life, in the 39th verse 
of this chapter. " He that findeth his life shall loose it, 
and he that looseth his life shall find it." Here, without 
any doubt, it means animal life. And so it does in the last 
under consideration. 



184 A DISCUSSION 

Now the Sanhedrim had power not only to hang or stonts 
an individual till dead — till annimal life w&s extinct — but 
power to destroy both life and body in Gehenna, the place 
where condemned malefactors., convicted of the highest 
crimes, were burnt alive. This is the power and this the 
death, which they were warned to fear — but they were 
not warned to fear God — for he who cared for the spar- 
rows, would most certainly care for them who were of 
more value than many sparrows. Now this is the true 
and common sense illustration of this text. And it does 
not teach the monstrous doctrine of the endless misery of 
any portion of the human family, in a state of immortality. 

I will now bring up one of the exceeding great and pre- 
cious promises, which has reference to the final destiny of 
all men. The promise was made to Abraham and the Pa- 
triarchs, that in them and in their seed should all the na 
tions of the earth be blessed. Gen. xii.3: "And I will 
bless theoi that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee, 
and in thee shall all the families of the earth be blessed " 
This is repeated in the 18 c. 18 v., and 28 c. 14 v., and in 
other places. This covenant is likewise referred to in 
Acts iii. 25. "Ye are the children of the prophets and of 
the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying 
unto Abraham, and in thy seed shall all the kindreds of 
the earth be blessed." Now all commentators agree that 
this is a promise of blessings through Christ, to all na- 
tions. But what is the nature of God's promised bless- 
ings? Peter tells us, Acts iii. 26, "Unto you first God 
having raised up his Son Jesus, and hath sent him to bless 
you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities" 

Again, to show that this promise includes both Jews and 
Gentiles — Gal. iii. 8, "And the Scriptures, forseeing that 
God would justify the heathen through faith, preached be- 
fore the Gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all 
nations be blessed." Now, my friends, if you will find, or 
if my friend Power will find, a single individual that is 
not included in all nations, and all families, and all kin- 
dred, I will admit that there are some that will not be 
saved. \Time expired. 



ON UNIVERSALISM. 185 

Saturday, August 2—9 o'clock, A. M» 

[MR. POWER'S THIRD SPEECH.] 

^Gentlemen Judges, and the Congregation. — I arise this 
morning to resume the investigation of this important 
subject, viz: the future final destiny of mankind. We will 
just name the points now under consideration. 

You will recollect that our first proposition is, that 
God's plan of moral government, as revealed in the Bible, 
holds man responsible in the future world, for his conduct 
in this world. And that this government promises re- 
wards to the righteous that cannot be tully enjoyed in this 
state of being, and threatens privation and misery to the 
finally impenitent, that cannot be fully experienced in this 
life. 

We have adduced Scripture proof of this point, on apart 
of which the gentleman offered his comments last even- 
ing. Before proceeding to apply these texts, we make a 
few remarks on our friend's last speech, which, no doubt, 
was observed by all to be something of a curiosity. One 
thing of which he informed us in it, is, that the Scriptures 
do not teach men to fear God. That they are to fear 
those who can kill the body, but not to fear God. [Mr. 
Doolittle here requested the privilege of making a correc- 
tion. He said his position was, not that the Bible did not 
in other cases teach us to fear God, but that that passage 
taught no such thing.] I thank the gentleman for his ex- 
planation. And in this I have the advantage of him, for 
in several instances he refused to take my explanation as 
my true meaning. 

We notice another point-^destroying the soul and body 
in hell. He takes the position that the soul and body 
mean the physical nature — the body, and the animal life, 
the soul — and that this includes all that is spoken of in the 
text — that nothing is said about the immortal soul. We 
showed the difficulty on this ; that it teaches us not to fear 
them that can kill the body, but that power that can, after 

16 



186 A DISCUSSION 

killing the body, destroy the animal life. And we asked 
him to show us an individual that, after its body was kill- 
ed, had animal life left to be yet destroyed. But he has 
not produced any such creature. 

The point was in reference to gehenna* 

We stated the difficulty that he might take it literally 
or figuratively, just as he pleased. If literally, then the 
text has no reference to any power under heaven, except 
those who lived when there was a literal fire burning in 
the valley of the son of Hinnom. And this will release all 
men of the present day from any obligations to the Gos- 
pel. If figuratively, then all his argument falls to the 
ground. 

In his last speech, he made a rush to the general prom- 
ises of the Bible ; which he claimed as being counter proof 
on the point under consideration, while they belong appro- 
priately and necessarily to his affirmative. But he had 
not moral courage, or was deterred, from some considera- 
tion, from using them there, while in the open field of con- 
test, and he has saved them for a running shot. But as he 
named his texts so rapidly that we could not take them 
down, and as he made no direct application of them, we 
will pass them at this time without remarks. 

We resume the argument to prove that God's system of 
moral government threatens men with privation and mis- 
ery which they cannot be subjected to fully in this world, 
and that of absolute necessity it extends to the future 
world. We are not now proving the duration of this mis- 
ery ; but that God does threaten men with this misery. 
We will show in the next place the only condition on which 
men can avoid this misery ; and then show its duration. 

We have some fears that we will, this morning, be the 
innocent occasion of a quarrel between friends. We re- 
gret this, and would not take such a course but from con- 
viction of duty. It is the more painful to cause this fall- 
ing out, on account of the ardent friendship which my 
friend, Mr. Doolittle, has evinced for Dr. Clarke, whom he 
considers one of the most talented, learned and critical 
scholars of the 18th and 19th centuries. But the fault is 
not mine. We quoted Matt. x. 27, 28, to prove the point 



s 



ON t'NIVERSALISM. 187 

fender consideration, that some are punished both soul and 
body in hell ; i. e. after death they are punished in the fu- 
ture world. We have maintained that " he who is able to 
destroy both soul and body in hell " is the great Jehovah. 
And will on this read a few words from Dr. Adam Clarke's 
commentary. " It is not," says he, " hell fire we are to 
fear, but it is God ; without the stroke of whose justice, 
hell itself would be no punishment; and whose froivn would 
render heaven itself insupportable." Here we have the 
unequivocal testimony of cur friend's tried and competent 
witness. And he must make the Dr. a hypocrite by teach- 
ing one thing at one time, and the opposite at another 
time, to suit his convenience, or he must yield the point. 
If the Dr. gives false testimony on one point, he is not to 
be believed at all. 

Now, the Blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, Matth. xii. 
31,32. Here we give you again the testimony of our 
friend's competent witness. He says, " Even personal re- 
proaches, revilings, persecutions, against Christ, were re- 
missible ; but blasphemy, or impious speaking, against the 
Holy Spirit, was to have no forgiveness." 

On this point, too, Dr. Clarke gives the views of Dr. 
Lightfoot, who quotes the Jewish Rabbi to show that the 
phrase the world to come, means the state after death. — 
" Thus," he says, " Rab. Taneum, The world to come, is 
when a man has departed out of this world." The Jews 
understood the phrase to mean two things — " the times of 
the Messiah" and " the state after death" Hence, so far 
from Dr. Clarke's views conflicting with our position, they 
come directly to its support. 

I refer to these distinguished divines, not because they 
prove or disprove my affirmation, but to save Dr. Clarke 
from gross perversion. 

Again, in proof, Luke xvi. 1£ — 31. The rich man and 
Lazarus. On this passage we will again introduce our 
friend's competent witness, Dr. Clarke. I shall not read 
all he says, but just enough to give you his views on it. 
Verse 19, "There was a certain rich man." " In the 
scolia of some MSS. the name of this person is said to be. 
Ninive. This account of the rich man and Lazarus, is 



188 A DISCUSSION 

either a parahle or a real history. If it be a parable it is 
what may be: if it be a history it is that which has been. 
Either, a man may live as here described, and go to per- 
dition when he dies: or some have lived in this way, and 
are now suffering the torments of an eternal fire. The 
account is equally instructive, in whichsoever oil these 
lights it is viewed." 

" By the phrase Abraham's bosom" he says, "an allu- 
sion is made to the custom of Jewish feasts, when three 
persons reclining on their left elbows on a couch, the per- 
son whose head came near the breast of the other, was said 
to lie in his bosom. So it is said of the beloved disciple, 
John xiii. 25. Abraham's bosom was a phrase used among 
the Jews to signify the paradise of God. See Josephus' ac- 
count of the Maccabees, chap, xiii," [Time expired. 

[mr. doolittle's third reply.] 

Gentlemen Moderators and the Audience — It appears 
that our friend Power and myself are verily at issue a- 
gain this morning. And the first thing of importance I 
shall notice is, his calling to your recollection again 
what he termed a very strong proof of his position. He 
again referred you for proof to Matth. x, 27, 28. Now 
I want to have you pay particular attention to this text, 
and give it all the weight you can injustice, in proof of 
our friends position, but if on a candid and careful exami- 
nation of it, you shall be satisfied that it affords not the 
least shadow of proof on his side, admit this also. 

I showed yesterday that the enquiry was, what are we 
to understand by the term hell in the text? Our friend 
tells us that it means a place of endless punishment be- 
yond the grave, I stated that in the text it had no such sig- 
nification. But that it was a term composed of two words 
Ghi Hinnom and meant the valley of the son of Hinnom 
on the south of Jerusalem. To make this term mean a 
place of punishment in the future world is an utter perver- 
sion of the original meaning of the word. In proof of this. 
I read you Dr. Cferke's explanation of the term ki, Mjatth. 
v. 12, for the same word in the original, is used in both. 



ON UNIVERSALISM. 189 

instances. From the fact that fires were kept constantly 
burning in this valley to consume dead bodies and what- 
ever offensive was left there, the phrase arose "where 
their wormdieth not and their fire is not quenched.'" You 
see my friends from the very definition of this term trans- 
lated hell that it cannot mean a place of punishment in 
the future world. And I have challenged the gentleman 
or any one else to bring forward from the Bible a single 
word which in its primary signification meant a place of 
punishment in the future world. But no such word has, or 
ever can be found. 

Again, what are we to understand by the destruction 
of the soul and budy as mentioned in Matth. x. 27, 28 ? 
Our friend contends that the soul here means, the ration- 
al and immortal spirit. But we have shown that this is 
not the meaning. The term rendered soul here is the 
same in the original, as the one rendered life, where our 
Savior says, "He that findeth his life, shall lose it, and he 
that loseth his life for my sake, shall find it." "And how 
our translators should render this term soul in one place 
and life in another place" says Dr. Clarke "I cannot con- 
ceive." It is plain then that this word soul in this place 
does mean the animal life, and not the immortal spirit. 
Now I wish to have you bear in mind this definition of the 
meaning of the term soul here, and we will enquire what 
is meant by destroying both soul and hodij in hell, Gehen- 
na, and who have power to do thisl "And fear not them 
which kill the body," those minor authorities which have 
power only to take the life — but fear him — that power or 
tribunal that has not only power to kill the body — to des- 
troy the animal life, but to burn the body in Gehenna. 
Now mark these were minor authorities that had no pow- 
er over the bodies after the life was taken, they had pow- 
er to condemn the individual to be stoned to death, to be 
strangled to death, or to take his life in any manner 
whereby the animal life might be destroyed. But here 
was a power that could burn the body — destroy both soul 
and body in this Gehenna hell. There are powers among 
us that can destroy the animal life. They can hang up 
a culprit, and there let him rest. And in addition, they 

*16 



190 A DISCUSSIOK 

can give over the body to the surgeons for dissection. So 
there is a destruction of both the animal life and of the 
body. Well thus it was with respect to the Sa ? nhedrim ? 
they had power not only to destroy the animnl life, but to 
burn the body in the valley of the son of Hinnom. Such 
my friends is the meaning of the text, it has no reference 
to the condition of the immortal spirit in the future world. 

But our friend here would have Dr. Clarke and me at 
war with each other. He says that he regrets that he is 
going to set good friends at variance. He contends that 
Clarke does not accord with me, on my explanation of 
the phrases this world, and the world to come. But I will 
show you he does fully accord with me, and that he clear- 
ly shows from his definitions of the terms employed in 
this text and which is confirmed by the most eminent 
biblical critics in the world— that the text offers no sup- 
port to our friends position. 

Our Savior first says: "All manner of sin and blasphe- 
my shall be forgiven unto men," but here is a peculiar 
kind of blasphemy that shall not be forgiven, for a length 
of time, — neither in this world, nor the world to come. 
Our friend would have the phrase, (he world to come 
mean the eternal world. But Dr. Clarke says "Though 
I follow the common translation, yet I am fuMy satisfied 
the meaning of the words is, neither in this dispensation 
(viz. the Jewish,) nor in that which is to come, (viz. the 
Christian.) Olam ha-bo — the world to come is a constant 
phrase for the times of the Messiah in the Jewish writers." 
To prove that this phrase was so used, he quotes from Dr. 
Lightfoot. I wish you to mark that we do not contend, 
that there was absolutely no forgiveness for this sin under 
the Jewish dispensation. Only that the Jewish law would 
not absolve a man for this sin — he must suffer the death 
of the body although the mercy of God might be extended 
to the soul. 

When our Savior says, this sin shall not be forgiven in 
this world, he has reference to the Jewish law, which al- 
ways punished this crime with death. 

This is its meaning, and this is all it means. It has 
reference only to the body, or to the penalty of the Jew- 






OK UtflViiRSAtlSM, S9! 

ish law, which must be inflicted on the body, while mercy 
might be extended to the soul. 

So you see it fails altogether of giving our friend the 
least support in favor of his position. 

The next important position our friend took, is one 
which I think will give him considerable trouble. And I 
want him to tread here as if he was on slippery places, 
and in order that be many step safely, I want him to de- 
fine his position which he takes on this point. Now I 
ask him and want a definite answer, which of the two po- 
sitions of Dr. Clarke he takes respecting the account of 
the rich man and Lazarus, whether he understands it as a 
parable or a real history, I want a definite answer. 
[Mr. Power, "Gentlemen Moderators, there is great dan- 
ger of spoiling children by granting their wants uncondi- 
tionally. I now propose that I will answer every question 
i the gentleman chooses to ask me during this discussion, di- 
' rectly, yes — or no, with the privilege of having three min- 
1 utes to explain, if 1 am misunderstood: provided that he 
( will agree to answer in the same manner, any question I 
I choose to ask him. If not I will not spoil the child by 
1 granting his request."] 

I will do this, provided I can answer all his questions. 
For he may ask me questions that I cannot answer. Even 
, a child can propose questions that a philosopher cannot 
answer. [Mr. Power here repeated the proposition that 
I it might be understood by all ] 1 now repeat the ques- 
; tion with fewer words, whether he understands theScrip- 
, ture to be a parable or a literal matter of fact! [Mr. 
| Power answered, "A literal matter of fact.'"] Well, I 
i hope our friend will not back out of that position. As I 
j have but a few moments of time now, I want you to bear 
| this answer in mind, and the next time I am up I will at- 
tend to it. 

I will now call your attention to the same counter 
I proofs which I brought forward in my last speech, which 
my friend did not attend to. These are recorded in Gen. 
iii. 15. and xii. S, and xxvi. 4, and xxviii. 14; and in Acts 
iii.25. I quote these promises, my friends, as the foun- 
dation of the Gospel promises. These were given to 



192 A DISCUSSION 

Abraham and confirmed to Isaac and Jacob. And, ac- 
cording to Peter's interpretation, they are the substance 
of all the promises revealed through the prophets, that God 
would bless all the families, nations, and kindred of the 
earth— which promise I understand to be a universal sal- 
vation to all the nations of the earth. And for our friend 
to make his argument good, he must show that there is 
some individual, at least, that is not included in all na- 
tions, families, and kindred of the earth. But as they do 
include all, and here blessings are bestowed on all, 
through Christ, the promised seed, and the blessing is 
defined — "in turning away every one of you from his in- 
iquities," it results in the complete redemption of the 
whole human family, and their salvation in heaven. Dr. 
Clarke informs us that this salvation means a salvation 
from sin, and that Peter means to teach that this promise 
— that all the nations of the earth should be blessed in 
the seed of Abraham—is the main promise contained in 
all the prophecies, and in the whole of the Old Testament, 
relative to the kingdom of Christ on earth, the whole reign 
of grace from his ascension till his coming again; till 
the reign of sin should be destroyed^, and all things be 
restored to their primitive order, and the peace of God, 
which passes all understanding, keep the heart and mind 
in the knowledge and love of God, and that the Scriptures 
teach that this work shall be universal. 

This settles the question. And now we want the gen- 
tleman to walk up to this proof and see if he can refute 
it. For as it stands, it entirely nullifies his posi- 
tion. For if it be a promise that includes eternal life, as 
Dr. Clarke understands it, and it undoubtedly does, and 
embraces the whole human family, every individual of 
it, then we have proved from the Bible, that all will be 
saved in heaven. [Time expired. 



[mr. power's fourth speech.] 

Gentlemen Moderators. — In the commencement of this 
address, we will attend to the last item in the gentleman's 



ON UNIVERSALIS!*!. 193' 

speech, viz : the promises of general, or universal bless- 
ings. And first, a word with regard to Dr. Clarke, Mr, 
D'/s remarks would make the impression that Dr. Clarke 
maintains, that these promises secure the unconditional 
salvation of the whole human family. This is not correct. 
Dr. Clarke's views are that these promises contain God's 
plan of mercy and grace through Jesus Christ, which pro- 
vides salvation for the whole human race ; and that every 
one who, by repentance and holy living, avails himself of 
these promises, shall enjoy them in a future world; but 
every one who rejects them shall be endlessly miserable. 
This is to rescue Dr. Clarke from the repeated perver- 
sions of his views in this discussion. And all can see that 
the gentleman's case is desperate, or it would not lead him 
to do such palpable injustice to an author of established 
reputation for honesty and piety. 

The promise was made to Abraham, and renewed to 
isaic and Jacob, and referred to by Peter, that in the seed 
of Abraham all the nations of the earth should be blessed. 
This is the promise which constitutes the premise in the 
argument. And the gentleman's conclusion is, that all will 
( absolutely be saved in the heavenly world. This conclu- 
sion we deny, to all intents and purposes, and affirm the 
argument to be entirely sophistical. And until he proves 
from the word of God, that to be blessed in any sense, is 
synonymous with absolute and unconditional salvation in 
heaven, he has not the least shadow of support from this 
sou rce. 

It appears that he intended to take us by surprise, in his 
mode of operation. We have already apprized you that 
he had not the courage to bring out his ammunition in the 
open field of conflict, where it ought to have appeared, but 
that he saved it for a running shot. Yesterday morning, 
when it was proposed to close the first question, he inform- 
ed us that he had a great amount of new proof he wished 
to bring forward, and consequently we continued the dis- 
cussion. But he spent the whole forenoon in referring 
again to his old argument, bringing only one additional 
text. And now, since we have commenced the second' 
question, he brings forward his proof for me to rebut. But 



194 



A DISCUSSION 



we know the system like a book, and understood the mode 
of warfare of its advocates ! and we knew that the gentle- 
man's ammunition was about used up in the open field; and 
the question with him was, whether he should use it all in 
the last shot, or save it for an ambush. And the latter was 
his conclusion. And yesterday afternoon he rushed from 
his ambuscade, as if to take us by storm. But we are ac- 
quainted with the manner of attack, and are not thrown 
into any perturbation by it; but remain, 

" As calm as summer evenings be" 

Notwithstanding this new mode of operation. 

We now turn to the gentleman's proof. The blessing 
promised, he assumes to be unconditional salvation in hea- 
ven. We will produce a few facts to show the falsity of 
this, and wish you to judge between facts and sophisticaL 
assumptions. If every nation, and kindred, and peopl* on 
the earth, are the subjects of this blessing, then it follows 
that not an individual has ever been passed by. ' Well, as 
a specimen, first we will take the Jews, and see if every 
individual of them was fully blessed in this sense. We 
cite you to 1 Cor. x. 7, 8, where the apostle informs us, 
m reference to the Jews, that for idolatry and fornication, 
there fell in one day, three-and-twenty thousand. And it 
is said in Heb. iii. that their carcases fell in the wilder- 
ness, on account of their unbelief. And the Savior says, 
Mark xvi. 16, " he that believeth not shall be damned/' 
Now here are twenty-three thousand who had the promise 
of this blessing, that, under God's judgment, were hurried, 
in unbelief, instantly into, eternity. 

Take another instance— the British army at the battle 
of New Orleans, in the last war. It is reported that the 
commander-in-chief of the army, with certainty of suc- 
cess in his undertaking, promised the soldiery, if they 
would storm the city they should be turned loose upon the 
spoil, and especially the females should be given into their 
hands as a reward of their bravery. And they rushed to 
the conflict. But through the overruling hand of Divine 
Providence, in giving success to the American army, 



OX TJN1VERSAL1SM 195 

whole ranks were mowed down, and they were hurried in 
an instant into eternity, with all their lusts and crimes 
burning in their hearts. 

Take another example. France, when Infidelity had 
raised its standard, and the Bible was condemned and 
burnt. When the ministers of God were openly murder- 
ed, His temple desecrated, and made the house of lewd- 
ness and crime. When the Sabbath was blotted out, and 
Infidelity, Atheism, murder, adultry, and all crimes, had 
their full reign, During this reign of moral death, hun- 
dreds and thousands of the most abandoned and wicked of 
this nation were hurried into eternity, in a moment of 
time, without any warning. 

Now, Gentlemen Moderators — for we mean to dislodge 
the gentleman from his ambush entirely — we have ad- 
duced, from three different nations, cases that were hur- 
ried instantly into the future world, while their hearts 
were full of unbelief, opposition and hatred to God, and 
burning with lust and brutal crimes, and cherishing the 
blackest Atheism. Mark my proposition — that God^threat- 
ens men with privation and misery that cannot be fully 
experienced in this life. And we call your attention again 
to the gentleman's first proof, the climax of his proof, in 
the former part of this discussion, which is — that none of 
this corruption is to be removed till the resurrection. He 
has staked every thing on the resurrection, which is yet 
future. Granting all he wants from the resurrection, 
which is yet future, here are thousands of idolatrous Jews, 
who have been hurried into eternity, with all their sins 
resting upon them ; and thousands of the British army, who 
were shot down in an instant, while lust was burning in 
their hearts ; and thousands upon thousands of the French 
nation, that left this world, full of adultry, murder and 
Atheism, and entered upon their existence in the future 
world with this moral character. Hence, according to his 
creed, they are unholy till the resurrection. Or, at any 
rate, he must take one of three positions. 1st. That they 
went out of this world wholly sanctified and fit for heaven. 
But this he dare not do ; "for he must deny the Bible, and 
his own arguments already given to us. Or, 2d. He must 



196 A DISCUSSION 

take the ground that they are in a state of unconscious 
sleep till the resurrection, which is no less a renunciation 
of the Bible, Or, 3d. He must take them to heaven in an 
unholy state, which, if possible, is still worse. Please 
weigh these facts, against a bare assumption. 

The gentleman has contended that men cannot be chan- 
ged and fitted for heaven till the resurrection, when the 
mediatorial reign of Jesus Christ shall cease. And now 
he can see that he has difficulties accumulating on his 
hands. We leave him to grapple with them, and pass to 
notice his remarks on our former position. He still per- 
sists in saying that it was not God that the Savior warned 
his disciples to fear in Matt. x. 27, *^8. I will not stop to 
use argument to refute this feeble attempt at evasion. And 
will only say, that if you commence at the 16th verse of 
this chap, you will see that the Savior enumerates many 
things t4at they would have to endure, and tells them that 
they should be hated of all men; but then in reference to 
those that could inflict all manner of violence on their bod* 
ies, he says to his disciples, Fear them not therefore. But 
he tells them whom they might fear — Him who, in addi- 
tion to all that might be done to the body, could destroy 
the immortal spirit in hell — in the future world — for this 
is the meaning, I have read Dr. Clarke to show you that 
he holds that it is Jehovah whom we are here taught to 
fear. 

A word with respect to the rich man and Lazarus. We 
answered the gentleman's inquiry, that we understood 
this to be a literal matter of fact. But we will here re- 
mark, that as some of these facts refer to this world, and 
some of them to the future world, the nature of the case 
requires that some of the language should be figurative. 
All such important facts recorded in the Bible, are de- 
scribed to us in figurative language. But because figura- 
tive language is us°-d, that does not show that the scene de- 
scribed is not a literal matter of fact. [ Time expired. 



ON UNIVERSALIS!*. 107 

[MR. DOOLITTLE'S FOURTH REPLY.] 

Our friend Power would have you believe that we have 
adopted the ancient mode of warfare, but we discard that 
style of fighting altogether. Our motto has always been, 
ari open field and fair play. This ambushing we*do not 
hold to. Give us the open field and light, that we may 
know what standard we rally around. But I always sup- 
posed it was the privilege of the negative partly to bring 
up any counter proofs he could, against the affirmative. 
And, in this matter, in quoting these promises, I have only 
been following in the footsteps of my illustrious predeces- 
sor in the former part of this discussion. [Mr. Power here 
remarked, that he had not said what he had in the char- 
acter of complaint, and renewed his statement, that he 
was willing that his system should be attacked at any 
point.] Well, then, I hope we shall not here any more 
about any old manner of warfare. I know he dreads my 
fire from this quarter, but he must stay and take it, and 
I warn him that I have a good many shots to make yet. 

I now call your attention again, to the promise to Abra- 
ham. Our friend here has labored very eloquently for 
our hero of New Orleans, and to show that some nation, 
away back in antiquity, had not inherited this promise, 
and hence, some of the nations, at least, may suffer end- 
less punishment after all. Now I want to set this matter 
right, then we will proceed. But first bear in mind the 
fact, the blessing promised, is universal, including all the 
kindred, families, and nations of the earth. Then, as this 
universal promise is a promise of salvation, it embraces 
the salvation of the entire human race. And I will say, 
that the whole argument of my friend went in my favor. 
For the promise will he fulfilled, and he showed it was 
not fulfilled in this world. Hence, the necessity of hav- 
ing it extend to the future world. This blessing is refer- 
red to in Gal. iii. 18. "That the blessing of Abraham 
might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ." — 
"That is," says Dr. Clarke, "justification, or the pardon 
of sin, with all other blessings consequent on it; such as 
peace with God, spiritual life, and eternal glory'," and fur- 

17 



li)N A DISCUSSION 

ther remarks that, "God gave the law that tho exceeding 
sinfulness of sin might Bppear, arid that man might be 

prepared to welcome the Gospel which proclaimed salva* 
Hon /o a lost World) through the atoning passion and 
death of Jesus Christ. 55 

Now, my friends, here are promises, and these promis- 
es are the Gospel covenant made with Abraham, and with 

his seed, that, all nations should he blessed through Christ, 
the Messiah. The promise extends from the beginning 
to the end of the reign of Christ. All the blessings are 

to be bestowed before he yields up all things into the 

hands of his Father. Christ will destroy the last enemy, 
the whole matter will be accomplished, then ho will yield 
up all into the hands of the Father, that God may be all 
in all. Then all will, according to this promise, have 

their sins pordoned, be at peace with (lod, possess eternal 

life and glory, with all its happy consequent 

We now invite your attention to the memorable ease 
Of the rich //,vm and L<r.itrus. J{omember,our friend ha-: 
answered definitely, that he understands tllin as a literal 
matter ol fact.. Understanding it in this sense, 1 have 
simply to Observe thhi it affords not the least support to 
his position. It. renders the whole a ridiculous farce, and 
SO far from supporting his position, overthrows it alto- 
gether, 

A literal matter of forth Hence, we are to understand 
that at a certain period of time, there lived, as a literal 
matter of fact, a certain rich man, clothed in purple and 
(int- linen, and fared sumptuously every day. And, as a 
literal matter of fact, there lived at the same time, a beg- 

r, named Lezarufc, that he was full of sores, and the 

dogS licked his sores, and he died, And, as a literal 
matter iA' fact, he was carried, bodily, into Abraham's 
bosom. Now, how manv literal bodies of beggars could 

be contained in Abraham's bosom? Hut this is only one 

difficulty J and mark, he was not buried, but carried di- 
rectly into Abraham's bosom, by angels* And tho rich 
man also died, and was in hell, as a literal matter of fact. 
Then, as a literal matter of fact, there ate two such 
places, as heaven and he//, so near each other that conver- 



ON UNIVERSAL 108 

sation can be carried on between the inhabitant* of the 
different places. And as a literal matter of fact* the 
a desire on the part of those in hell, to go to heaven, and 
ire of those in heaven to go b6H. Then, as this 
rich man got into this literal hell, he desired that La/a- 
ms might be scut to dip the tip of his finger in water and 

cool his to What a request for a man ID his situa- 

tion! Would this ho any relief to him? No! but ai 

gravation. There would be some consistency if he had 

called for an <£can of water. A^aimand he said, "1 pray 

. therefore, father." This, my friends, is a literal 
matter of Riot. Then, hell is a place for a prayer meet- 
ing! Christ says, ti A house divided against itself cannot 

Stand." But here inholl, prayers are put up, really lor 

the overthrow of its kiagdom. And if hell is a place for 

prayers, for the Conversion of sinners, it overthrows the 
gentleman's position entirely. Now, my friends, you see 

the consequences of understanding this in a literal 

and if it affords my friend any support, he is welcome to 
it. It is probable that we shall have a now edition of it 
when he SXt time. Till then we let. it pass. 

Now for some more ambush fighting, we have some 

more ammunition yet, and we shall trouble our friend in 
this way as often as we can conveniently, after attending 
well to his proof texts. i si. John, iv. 14. "And we have 

and do testily that the Father sent the Son to be the 
Savior of the world. " Here Christ is denominated the 

Of of the world. Now if he is the Savior of the 
world, thea the world will he saved. If uoi — if John was 
laboring under a great mistake — ihcn the world will not 
be Sated. If OUr friend will show that Christ is not the 
Savior of the world, then wo will conclude that some may 
l>e lost. Now, you will all grant that Christ cannot he 
the Savior of more than he saves. For example — to illus- 
trate — I stand hy the river side, i of my friends 

in a small boat, it is Upset, and they are now Strugt 
#lin^ in the water, I launch out to their rescue -my oh- 
ject is to savetho ten--hul i uing only five, 

other five are drowned. Now oan I 'he called the sa- 
vior of the ten? No,- only of the five whom I saved.— - 



200 A DISCUSSION 

Hence, I say, Christ cannot be the Savior of more that* 
he saves, and unless he saves the world he cannot be de- 
nominated the Savior of the world. 

But I will give the gentleman another argument. John, 
Chap. vi. 37. and xii. 32. The argument here is, that 
God has given all power into the hands of Christ, so- that 
he can say, "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will 
draw all men unto me." We hold that this teaches the 
salvation of all men. [Time expired* 

[mr. power's fifth speech.] 

Gentlemen Judges. — A few remarks on the gentleman's 
counter proof. And he is reminded that he is at liberty 
to adduce proof from any source he chooses, and bring it 
to bear against any position we may take. But I shall^ 
not feel bound to attend to any text unless he gives chap- 
ter and verse, and read it that it may be taken down. 

He holds that the universal blessings refer to the future 
world. This position I deny, and before he can avail 
himself of the argument, he must establish his premises ; 
that these blessings mean, unconditional salvation in the fu- 
ture world. We maintain the contrary and to illustrate, 
quote Rom. v. 18. "Therefore as by the offence of one;" re- 
fering to the apostasy of Adam, by whose sins he and his en- 
tire posterity fell, and the condemnation of God's law — 
"judgment came upon all men to condemnntion, even so, 
by the righteousness of one* the free gift came upon all 
men unto justification of life." That is, Jesus Christ by 
his personal obedience in this life, and by his vicarious 
suffering and death, has so satisfied the law, that every 
member of the human family may by repentance and faith 
in Christ, be justified, sanctified and saved. This is the 
universal salvation that is promised, and it has reference 
to what God has done through the gift and vicarious suf- 
fering of the Lord Jesus Christ. Without this God could 
not from the perfections of his own nature, save a single 
member of the human family — justice would not be satis- 
fied. But by reason of this vicarious atonemeut, he can 
save every child of Adam from every nation, and kindred. 



ON UNIVEKSALISM. 201 

and tongue, provided they will accept of the terms of salva- 
tion. And this he has promised to do. But if they live 
in voluntary wickedness, and refuse the offer of mercy, 
and die in their iniquity, they must endure the penalty of 
the law in the future world. So the assumption that this 
blessedness belongs unconditionally, to every individual of 
our race in the future world, is false in all its parts, and 
in every element that enters into it — absolutely false. 
And the word of God fixes falsehood on its brow. 

We have shown that through the righteousness of one 
i. e. through the vicarious and meritorious sufferings of 
Jesus Christ, the free gift came upon all men unto justifi- 
cation of life. That is in infancy all are born into this 
world in a state of justification and dying in this state are 
saved. And in this respect, all the nations and families 
and kindreds of earth are blessed in accordance with the 
promise. But that all who come to adult life, or to* years 
of understanding, and have sinned, can never be saved 
but by faith, In further proof, we read Rom. iii. 23 — 26. 
"For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God; 
being justified freely by his grace, through the redemption 
that is in Christ Jesus : whom God hath set forth to be 
a propitiation, through faith [mark the condition through 
faith] in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the re- 
mission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of 
God; to declare, I say, at this time, his righteousness: that 
he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth 
in Jesus." 

Now you see we have removed the whole basis on 
which our friend rests the whole catalogue of promises. — 
And have showed conclusively, that instead of these prom- 
ising unconditional salvation to adults, either in this or 
the future world, salvation is suspended wholly on faith — 
believing in Jesus Christ in this world. And that those 
who do not belive cannot be saved, either in this or the 
world to come. 

A few words more in reference to the general blessings. 
We have brought to bear against the gentleman's assump- 
tions, a number of stubborn facts, and we might increase 
the list if it were necessary. All these had been the sub- 

*17 



202 a Disctirssfotf 

jects of this blessing when they entered this world, arfti 
had by their wickedness forfeited the favor of God. These 
persons, whose characters and crimes have been describ- 
ed, were hurried into eternity in a moment, under the 
frowns of an offended God. They entered into the future 
world unholy — unprepared for heaven, and fit subjects for 
perdition and endless wo. We showed that the gentle- 
man must either take the ground that they went out of the 
world holy— and this he would not do, for he has already 
forestalled himself in saying that no one, not even Paul 
himself, leaves this world holy, and that all must wait for 
the resurrection to purify them and fit them for heaven— 
or that they are in a state of unconsciousness till the res- 
urrection — or that they are still in a conscious state and 
unholy. 

Now to settle this point in the answers given, 1 ask the 
gentleman, under the rule we have agreed upon, to answer 
any question, yes, or no, with the privilege of three min- 
utes to explain — Did these persons go into eternity holy or 
unholy? [Mr. Doolittle answered — -'As far as all the 
light and evidence we can get enables us to determine, they 
went out of this world unholy,"] Well, 1 ask the gentle- 
man, in the next place, if he believes they went into hea- 
ven in that unholy and corrupt state ? [Mr. Doolittle — M I 
do not."] Again, I ask if he believes they have a consci- 
ous existence till the resurrection 1 [Mr. Doolittle— " As 
to that we have no occular demonstration."] I require a 
direct answer. [Mr. Doolittle — " My opinion — -to aceom- 
date my friend — merely my opinion is, that those individ- 
uals are in a conscious state of existence."] Now I ask 
him if he believes that this conscious existence is a state of 
happiness or of suffering? [Mr. Doolittle — "That de- 
pends on circumstances, if-—"] I ask not a speech or ex- 
planation, but an answer, yes, or no. [Mr. Doolittle here 
positively refused to answer this question, claiming that 
it came under the condition he had made, this being a ques- 
tion that could not be answered.] The gentleman says 
he made a condition, and this question comes under it. I 
simply remark, and then yield the floor for adjournment, 
that I readily concede to his reservation not to answer a 



Off TOlVERSALlSr*. 20$ 

question that is impossible to answer — -but the point is, does 
this question come under this head ? Those who left this 
World in the state; described, he admits, were unholy, that 
they could not enter heaven in that state, that they are in 
a state of conscious existence, and now the last question is 
simply this — are those persons happy or miserable? I 
leave it to the congregation to decide, whether this comes 
under his reservation, or not. [Adjourned. 

[mr. doolittle's fifth reply.] 

Gentlemen Moderators and the Audience. — I do not want 
you to forget the question now under discussion, and I will 
read again. [Question read.] You will bear in mind that 
this question is not whether men are punished for their 
I sins in this world, but will they suffer endless punishment 
J in a state of immortality ? You remember I brought for- 
ward, in confirmation of the negative, the promises made 
to Abraham and renewed to Isaac and Jacob, which prom- 
1 ises are the Gospel covenant made with these Patriarchs, 
i embracing the spiritual interests and destiny of all moral 
( beings. These promises are promises of Universal Bless- 
ings, to be bestowed on all the families, kindreds, and na- 
tions of the earth, through Jesus Christ. The nature of 
the blessings, we contended, were salvation from sin ; as 
Peter explains it, in Acts iii. 25, 26 — " Ye are the children 
• of the Prophets and of the covenant which God made with 
our Fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall 
ail the kindreds of the earth be blessed. Unto you first, 
God, having]raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you* 
in turning aicay every one cf you from his iniquities " — 
I This renders it evident that the nature of these promises, 
1 is salvation from sin. You recollect that I told you they 
extended through the whole mediatorial reign of Christ— - 
I and then he surrenders up the Kingdom to the Father* that 
1 He may become all in all. He will then have fulfilled 
> these promises, in turning away every one of our race from 
his iniquities. " And then cometh the end," as Paul says, 
I and the last enemy shall be destroyed, and all shall be re- 
■ deemed from the bondage of corruption into the glorious 



204 A DISCUSSION 

liberty of the children of God, and become equal to the an~ 
gels, and be the children of God, being the children of the 
resurrection. 

Now what does our friend Power say to this ? He ad- 
mits it is a universal promise, and a universal blessing. — 
We agree in this. We both believe that it is a promise of 
a Savior and Redeemer of this world. But what is the 
nature of this salvation ? In what sense is Christ the Sa- 
vior of the world ? This is a salvation from sin. And Je- 
sus Christ saves ail men, and turns them away from their 
iniquities, and renders them through his agency immortal, 
glorious, holy and happy in the future world. Christ 
came into the world to make full atonement for the trans- 
gression of Adam and all its consequences. And in this 
sense he fulfilled the promise. This is so expressed in the 
M. E. Discipline. It reads thus, I think. I quote from 
memory: "The atonement by Christ is a perfect, full and 
complete satisfaction for the sins of the whole world, both 
original and actual." [For correct reading, sec Discipline, 
Art. 2.] Now we believe that Christ has made a univer- 
sal atonement and satisfaction for the sins of the whole 
world, both original and actual, and that this constitutes 
him the Savior of the world. Now I have the curiosity to 
enquire, what farther claim justice can have, than full sat- 
isfaction for the sins of the whole world, both original and 
actual ? In this sense, my friend admits that Christ is a 
universal Savior — that he has made full satisfaction for all 
sin. But after all, strange to relate! he will tell you, a 
great part of the human family will be made eternally 
miserable in the future world. This looks to me like de- 
manding payment for the debt twice. After full satisfac- 
tion has been made for all sin, then again demand satis- 
faction for it at the hand of the transgressor! But per- 
haps he can explain this, and make it perfectly reconcile- 
able with Scripture and reason. 

My friend finds fault with my exposition of the passage 
in Rom. v. But this scripture is one of the most lucid ar- 
guments, in proof of the universal salvation of the whole 
human family, to be found, except the argument from the 
resurrection. Indeed, it is full as clear as that, but not 



ON TTNIVERSALISM. 



205 



quite so strong. But is strong enough to prove the doc- 
trine fully. The Apostle is here laboring to convince 
those to whom he is writing, that the evils of the fall of 
Adam, or of sin which reigns over all, are to be entirely 
removed — that the reign of sin shall be destroyed, and the 
Kingdom of Grace succeed in its place, anH every moral 
malady be removed, and all be restored to spiritual sound- 
ness and moral health, tlmt the remedy shall be as great as 
the disease. That you may be satisfied that this is the fea- 
ture of the argument, let Paul speak himself, 18th verse : 
" Therefore, as by the offence of one, judgment came upon 
all men, to condemnation, even so by the righteousness of 
one, the free gift came upon all men unto justification of 
life." The Apostle is here speaking of what had not been 
actually experienced by every individual, (for all have 
not yet been justified,) but what would be experienced, and 
for greater certainty, as he often does, he uses the past 
tense. Now remember, that by the offence of one, all 
have come under condemnation. And here the promise is 
that the gift of God shall come on all men to justification 
of life. Just as extensively as judgment has passed upon 
all, just so extensively shall the free gift come upon all.— 
If you restrict one, you must restrict the other. If you? 
say that justification of life does not come upon every in- 
dividual, then you must take the ground that every indi- 
vidual has not come into condemnation. But you cannot 
restrict this. By the grace of God through Jesus Christ, 
the whole world shall he brought into justification of life, 
and shall enjoy all the blessings of salvation. " For as by 
one man's disobedience many were made svnners, so by the 
obedience of one shall many be made righteous. 5 ' Now 
mark, here, and see how far the argument of our friend 
fails of removing the argument predicated on this passage- 
His argument is, that Christ came to restore from the ef- 
fects of the fall, but not to restore the whole world to a 
state of righteousness and justification. For some, after 
all, notwithstanding all God has done, may remain in de- 
spair to all eternity. But the argument of the Apostle is y 
that by the obedience and righteousness of Jesus Christ* 
those who were made sinners, shall be made righteous. — 



206 



A DISCUSSION 



The laws of language, and especially the language of the 
Bible, requires that the same many that are condemned, 
shall be justified. The same many that were made sinners, 
shall be made righteous. But our friend says Christ came 
to place man in the same condition he was *in before the 
fall, and yei maintains that God suspends his salvation on 
certain conditions, and that men mav live and die sinners 
and be eternally miserable, av.H that" without remedy, not- 
withstanding all Jesus Christ has done. 

Now Paul's argument is not that all will be placed in a 
salvable condition, and then many of them be lost ; but 
that the all, and the many, that were sinners under con- 
demnation, shall be made righteous and be justified. This 
is his conclusion: " That as sin hath reigned unto death." 
How far has sin reigned unto death ? On all men. " So 
death passed upon all men for that all have sinned"— 
" even so might grace reign through righteousness unto 
eternal life, by Jesus Christ our Lord." Now, just so far 
as sin hath reigned unto death, (and it hath reigned in ev- 
ery individual,) just so far will grace reign, through righ- 
teousness unto eternal life. All shall be restored to holi- 
ness and happiness in a state of immortality. There are 
no iffs and ands in the matter. It cannot admit of the 
least shadow of doubt. It is absolutely certain here, that 
the Apostle intends to prove, as Dr. Clarke says, " that 
the salvation from sin here, is as extensive and complete 
as the guilt and contamination of sin — that death is con- 
quered, hell disappointed, the devil confounded, and sin 
totally destroyed." And here is ground to shout, Amen ! 
Hallaluiah ! The Lord God Omnipotent reigneth ! Amen! 
and Amen! And I should think that our friend Power 
would shout too, in view of such a prospect. But he wont 
even say Amen with Dr. Clarke. 

I will here say a word about those questions, as our 
friend will not forget them when he gets up, and I want to 
save him trouble. He will probably say I am bound to 
answer all questions, yes, or no, on the ground of our 
agreement. But you will recollect that I made a reserve; 
because he might ask me questions that I nor no other 
man could answer, but I would answer all reasonable 



ON UNI VERSA LISM. 207 

questions. But I did not suppose he was going to ask 
eight or ten in a string. Well, I answered two or three, 
and he appeared to be no nearer the end, than when he 
began. 1 did not know but he might stand all day asking 
questions. Now I would not make an unqualified agree- 
ment to give a yes, or no, to all the questions a man might 
ask. 

In regard to the individuals mentioned. I admitted that 
they went out of this world unholy. But could not enter 
heaven unholy, and that they were in a state of conscious 
existence. Now he wants to know whether I believe they 
are unhappy or not. If they are unholy, they are unhap- 
py, that is evident. If they are in precisely the same mor- 
al condition that they were in when they left this world, 
they are unhappy. But I believe they are not unholy 
now. But 1 do not pretend to know all about the future 
state — only I believe, and have shown you, that God will 
wipe tears from off all faces, and hence a change will, and 
must take place. I do not pretend to know when this will 
take place. It may take place in death, or after death. I 
do not know all about this. But it is not my business to 
show that there is no punishment after death, but that 
there is not an endless punishment. It is for my friend to 
show that there is an endless punishment ; and as yet he 
has brought almost nothing that has any bearing on this 
subject. [Time expired. 

[mr. power's sixth speech.] 

Gentlemen Jvdges : — I resume the investigation of this 
important subject, by making a passing remark or two on 
the gentleman's last speech. With reference to those 
questions proposed — I wish to remind you that this en- 
gagement was not entered into at my instance, in the first 
place. My friend, Mr. Doolittle, had proposed questions 
to me several times, and I answered them ; but he declined 
throughout to answer mine. And when he again pro- 
posed an important question, and wanted a direct answer, 
I then proposed to answer that or any other question he 
might ask me during the discussion, reserving three min- 



288 A DISCUSSION 

utes to' explain, if I was misunderstood in my answer, pro- 
vided he would do the same. This was fair and honor- 
able. And no advantage could be gained by either party. 
This agreement was entered into on both sides, and we 
now stand pledged before this community to fulfill our 
agreement. And when I am unwilling to answer any 
question that will admit of it, yes, or no, I will then re- 
lease him ; but till then I shall hold him to his engagement. 
I am ready, in the investigation of any question, to make 
such an agreement. It is just as binding on me as it is 
on him. 

In reference to the general promises, and especially his 
remarks on the 5th of Rom. it will be seen, that instead 
of examining my proof texts, some of which he has never 
touched, he has spent his speech in falling back on his af- 
firmative, and has given us perhaps the fifteenth edition of 
his speech made in the first part of the discussion. And, 
you will mark, he has tried to amend his affirmative proof 
again and again. He said they trust for final salvation on 
£he suffering, and death, and merits of Jesus Christ. But 
I have shown you, on his affirmative, that his system ex- 
cludes Christ, in His life, death, resurrection, and in every 
characteristic belonging to Him as a Savior, unless he can 
exert omnipotent power in the resurrection ; but this he 
cannot do ; for the system holds that he is a finite being. 

"We have shown you that his system neither pardons 
men after death, nor saves them from sin, nor from the 
punishment of sin, in this world. And if it does not, it is 
absurd to talk of pardoning sin at all. So we hope to hear 
no more from the gentleman, of being justified or pardoned 
through Jesus Christ, unless he changes his whole ground 
with regard to the character his system gives to the 
Savior. 

The general "promises and the discipline. All these 
things which belong properly to his affirmative, he bings 
up on my question. But I do not complain of this, and 
here renew his license to attack my position as he chooses. 
But to create a difficulty on the 5th of Rom, he had to cor- 
rect the text, making it read, " the free gift shall come" 
in the future; while the apostle has it in the past tense. — 



ON UNIVERSALIS*!. 209 

I- We showed that this free gift had reference to the vicari- 
1 ous sufferings and atonement of Christ. And this was 
I made. Therefore, it is spoken of in the past tense. The 
apostasy of Adam and his race, is atoned for, so that, by 
I accepting the terms of mercy, men may obtain pardon and 
the favor of God; and if they die in this state they are 
saved in heaven. This difficulty — that if Christ made 
. atonement for the sins of the whole world, both original 
and actual, and if the debt was paid, how can God require 
it again ? — we will answer. That, by the atonement, sat- 
isfaction was made for all of our race. But salvation is 
li by grace. The merits of the Savior's death made satis- 
faction, so far, that God can be just and the justifier of ev- 
ery one that believeth. And the 'benefits of the atone- 
ment are enjoyed by man, on conditions of repentance and 
faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. And we give the proof, 
Mark, the point is that through the atonement of Jesus 
j Christ, the benefit' of it is applied to every individual, so 
that if he dies in infancy he is saved in heaven, but if he 
. commits actual sin, he is pardoned and saved only on con- 
| dition of repentance and faith. This proof has been given 
1 before: Rom iii.24, 26. " Being justified freely by his 
I grace, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 
j whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through 
1 faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the re- 
;; mission of sins that are past through the forbearance of 
j God, to declare, I say, at this time, his righteousness, that 
; ; he might be just and the justifier of him which believeth in 
! Jesus." 

Now we return to the point on my first proposition, that 
ij God threatens sinners with misery which they cannot 
j fully experience in this world, and of absolute necessity it 
1 extends into the future world. 

We have adduced a number of Scriptures on this subject, 
I and now proceed to make a few passing remarks on the 
! gentleman's comments on the case of the rich man and La- 
i zarus 

He asked if we understood this to be a literal matter of 
I fact, and was answered in the affirmative ; and subse- 
i quently we stated that such was the nature of some of the 

18 



210 A DISCUSSION 

facts, that it required figurative language to convey the 
idea to the human mind. He tried to find something lu- 
dicrous in this case. But what are the literal facts when 
viewed candidly ? Why, there was a rich man who lived 
in guilt and sin, died and was hurried. There is no ab- 
surdity in this. The gentleman has admitted that men 
die and go into the future world unholy. Again, there 
was a poor man who begged at the rich man's door, and 
the dogs licked his sores. There is no absurdity in ail 
this. We have witnessed it all. But he died and was 
carried by angels to Abraham's bosom. The gentleman 
tried to make this ludicrous, by maintaining that the poor 
man's literal body was carried by angels to Abraham's 
bosom. But this is a bare assumption. The Bible does 
not say this. And it is fairly to be inferred that his body 
was burried, and that it was his spirit that was conveyed to 
Abraham's bosom. And is there any thing ludicrous in 
the idea that a spirit, redeemed by the blood of Christ, and 
prepared by faith and holy living, should be accompanied 
by these invisible angelic spirits up to the throne of God ? 
Again, he tried to start a difficulty about Abraham's bosom , 
literally. The nature of the case required figurative lan- 
guage. The paradise of God is figuratively represented by 
Abraham's bosom. The rich man in hell lifted up his eyes 
being in torment. Is there any thing absurd in this, that 
a man who had resisted the Spirit of God, who had withheld 
the service of his life from his Maker, had lived in rebellion 
against God, and died unholy — that he should be excluded 
from the society of the holy'? Nothing absurd here. Mr. 
D. has admitted that men go into the eternal world unholy, 
and that they cannot enter heaven without a moral change. 
And is it ludicrous that he should lift up his eyes in this 
state 1 This is the language of the Bible, and every 
man's conscience, whatever may be his creed, tells him 
that this is what might be. 

He attempts to make it appear that the call for water 
was absurd. What does this amount to, keeping in mind 
that language must be used that we could understand ? — 
W^ater asked for was an indication of pain. This was de- 
nied. But he stated that there was a prayer meeting in 



ON UNIVERSALIS}!. 211 

hell. But this was not prayer to God ; and it was a sel- 
fish request. He knew if his five brethren came there, it 
would increase his misery. It was sheer selfishness that 
led him to make this request. But is it at all absurd that 
he should have five brethren whom he did not want to come 
where he was ? No. The gentleman said that the inhab- 
itants of heaven and hell wished to change places. But 
this is not the fact. The rich man did not ask to exchange 
— he did not dare to do it — for he knew it would not be 
granted. And no wish is expressed by the inhabitants of 
heaven to go to hell. And the language used shows the 
absolute impossibility of going from one place to the other. 
In Rev. ii. 20 — 23, facts are described, as is admitted by* 
all competent critics, and yet such is the nature of those 
facts, it requires highly figurative language to express 
them. [Time expired. 

[MR. DOOLITTLE^S. SIXTH REPLY.] 

Gentlemen. — From the fact, that in looking over my 
minutes of my friend's argument, I find it so difficult to 
discover any thing that has any bearing on the question, 
I am at a loss to decide whether he has adduced any proof 
on his affirmative. I would ask what proof he brought 
while last speaking? 

The first thing I noticed is, he says I am not satisfied 
with my argument, previously made, but am trying to 
mend it, by bringing proof against his position. It is 
sufficient for this, to say, it is his statement, not mine. 

I intend to notice all the proof that he will bring for- 
ward. I pledge myself that no proof, that can be called 
proof, which he will bring, shall pass unnoticed. But, as 
yet, he has brought no evidence on the point, which is the 
endless misery of a portion of the human race in a state of 
immortality. JMow if he will bring forward, and I chal- 
lenge him to do it, a single text that teaches this, I will 
abandon the field. I want him to bring a thus saith the 
Lord, that says a sinner shall, suffer endless misery 
for his sins. I deny that I have brought forward 
any proof to strengthen my affirmative on the former 



212 A DISCUSSION 

question. I bring it forward as additional proof of my po- 
sition on this question, and I have an abundance to bring 
forward yet. There is line upon line, and precept upon 
precept, teaching the glorious doctrine of the salvation of 
all men, and I do not bring it forward because I think my 
previous argument lacked for Scripture proof, but to show 
you the abundance of evidence there is on this subject. — 
Our friend says he understands the Bible to teach salva- 
tion by grace, and not by personal sufferings. Well, so 
do I. We agree in this; I am glad we do. 

But my friend's is not a scheme of universal salvation 
and redemption, predicated on the grace of God, be- 
stowed on all through Jesus Christ— through the power 
of the resurrection — a salvation by grace? I know not 
the gentleman's object; but I suppose he wanted to con- 
vey the idea that we hold that the sinner is saved in some 
other way than by the grace of God. I have always dis- 
carded the idea that we expect to be saved as the reward 
of faith or obedience, and, therefore, he would make you 
think that we believe that man is to make his way to hea- 
ven, through fire and torment, and after he has suffered a 
certain amount, demand heaven on the score of justice.— 
The gentleman tells us that his main position is, that un- 
der God's moral government, mankind are threatened 
with privation and misery, which they cannot fully ex- 
perience in this world, therefore it must be endured in the 
future world. But where is this threatning. You remem- 
ber, I have challenged him to fix his finger, on a single 
passage of scripture, that teaches endless suffering in an 
immortal state of existence. This he has not done, and 
will not during this discussion. 

Again, the case of the rich man and Lazarus. Now I 
want to show again the ridiculousness of understanding 
this as a literal matter of fact. Our friend, has tried to 
manifest a little ingenuity, to redeem this passage from 
the attitude of absurdity and nonsense, in which it was 
placed by his construction. But he has not been able to 
do it. Now I ask him on what ground he settles it, that 
the rich man shall be damned forever 1 Is it because 
he was a sinner here? What evidence have we that he 



Otf UNIVERSALISM. 213 

was not as good a man, as my friend Power? There is noth- 
ing here expressed nor implied to lead us to suppose, that 
he had not the patience of Job, the meekness of Moses, 
the piety of the Psalmist, and in a good degree the wis- 
dom of Solomon. It is all mere assumption, to suppose 
he was not a good man. And what evidence have we 
that Lazarus was a good man? We are not told, that he 
was not as corrupt in heart, as he was in body — that mor- 
ally as well as physically, he was not full of wounds, and 
bruises and putrifying sores. And of the rich man, how 
do we know but that he visited the fatherless and the 
widow in their afflictions, and administered to the wants 
of the poor and needy? Should he be condemned because 
he was rich ? We have no evidence that he did not make 
a good use of his riches. Was he unkind to the poor? 
Of this we have evidence to the contrary. If he had 
been unfeeling, his door would have been the last place 
where Lazarus would have been laid to be sustained. 
This was evidence that he was kind to the poor, that he 
made a liberal use of his riches. All that is here men- 
tioned of the rich man in this world, is in favor of his be- 
ing a good man, and there is nothing in favor of Lazarus, 
but rather against him. — And that he was taken to heaven 
on the ground, that he was a good man is all assumption. 
Again, the gentleman assumes that the hell here spoken 
of, is a place in the future world. Now [ want to ask 
him if this place has some locality in the universe, why 
we have not, some account of it in the creation of the 
world. We have an account of the creation of the Sun, 
and Moon and Stars, and all things upon the Earth, and 
that all went on in beauty and harmony. "And God saw 
that every thing that he had made and behold it was very 
good." But nothing is said about this hell, and it is 
strange if this hell is so large and is to contain so many 
people, that we have no account of it at all. We should 
like to have our friend if he can, give us some account of 
it, and let us know its whereabouts. But we are sure he 
can give us no light concerning it. The divines who 
have held that there was such a place, have never been 
able to agree where it was. Whiston held that it was lo- 

18* 



214 A DISCUSSION 

cated in Saturn. And some have held that it was located 
in some of the comets, and when the comet approaches 
the Sun, they are scorched and burnt with its intense 
heat, and when it recedes back into the cold regions of 
space, they are frozen with the intense cold; so they will 
be eternally scorching and freezing. Another divine, who 
was engaged in getting up a reform in N. Y., gave it as 
his opinion that it was located in the bowels of the earth, 
about thirty miles below its surface, and that volcanoes 
were mere safety valves. Well by and by at the end of 
time, there will be an explosion, and this vast globe was 
to become a liquid lake of fire and brimstone, and all the 
righteous will be taken up to heaven, and all the wick- 
ed, will remain here forever. — Now our friend seems 
to hold that there is some such place—a hell of endless 
misery, — -a lake, or place of fire and brimstone* — But I 
deny that the term translated hell in this parable, is even 
used in the Bible, to signify a place of punishment in the 
future world. The original signification of the term 
Gehenna, we have told you meant the valley of the son of 
Hinnom, and the word Hades, in the new Testament and 
Sheol in the old Testament, both literally signify, as all 
able commentators tell us the grave or the place of the 
dead generally, without any reference to their moral 
character, happiness or misery. The term is sometimes 
used in a figurative sense, to denote mental suffering, but 
never in the future world. Says David "the sorrows of 
death compassed me, and the pains of hell got hold on me 
Psa. cxvi, 3." Here the term is used to denote mental 
suffering. Again, David found himself in the lowest hell. 
Now can there be a hell — lower than the lowest? David 
was in the lowest hell, and surely he did not go into the 
future world to find it, David was a great sinner, and was 
as he terms it, cast into the lowest hell. But he was de- 
livered. He says, "Thou (God) hast delivered my soui 
from the lowest hell," Psa. , Ixxxvi. 13. 

Again, "the wicked shall be turned into hell, and all 
the nations that forget God" Psa. ix. 19, i. e. into Sheol 
or the grave, wicked nations bring on themselves, swift 
destruction and are turned into their graves. — But this 



ON TTNIVERSALI3M. 2 IS 

has no reference to a future world; and I challenge the 
gentleman to produce from the Bible, a single passage 
that proves a state of punishment in the immortal world. 
The gentleman's position, is that Gods moral govern- 
ment threatens men with suffering, which they cannot ful- 
ly experience in this world, consequently they must suf- 
fer in the future world. Now we deny that the Bible 
teaches any such doctrine from Gen. to Rev., and we 
challenge him to show it. But my friends to negative 
this ^doctrine of endless misery, I take the ground that 
sin is a finite principle, therefore, endless punishment is 
unjust. It is a principle in natural philosophy that an ef- 
fect cannot exceed the cause that produces it. Now pun- 
ishment is an effect of sin, and sin the cause. Now as sin 
is a finite cause, it cannot be deserving of infinite punish- 
ment. What is sin? Sin is a transgression of the law. 
Who commits sin? Man. Is man infinite? No, his 
capacities are all finite, and consequently all his acts are 
finite. None but God can perform an infinite act. Now 
as sin is finite, a God of infinite justice, whose Throne is 
based on principles of eternal justice and equity, never 
will inflict endless punishment, for a transient finite crime, 
For this would be at war with, his justice. Kndiess pun- 
ishment for finite crimes, is a punishment infinitely dis- 
proportionate to the desert of the crime. I hope the gen- 
tleman will attend to this argument. [Time Expired. 

[mr. power's seventh speech.] 

Gentlemen' Moderators: — A few remarks first in rela- 
tion to the gentleman's last argument, formed on the phi- 
losophical principle that a finite cause cannot produce an 
infinite effect. Punishment, he says, is the effect of sin, 
and as sin is finite, therefore the punishment must be 
tinite. 

But his logic is as false as his theology. The fallacy 
lies in using the terms endless and infinite as perfectly sy- 
nonymous, while they are infinitely different. Infinite 
has neither beginning nor end, nor any limit whatever. — 
But there is a beginning to all punishment, and though it 



216 A DISCUSSION 

may extend on endlessly, it will eternally be less than in 
finite. Are the pious, subjects of infinite happiness ? No ; 
only endless happiness. So with the sinner. He is a fi- 
nite being, and cannot be subject to infinite punishment 
and this we never contended — >but he may be subject t 
endless punishment. So Mr. DSs logic and philosophy 
both fail him. 

With reference to the locality of hell, or of heaven, we 
barely observe, that the Bible fully warrants the belief 
that heaven and hell imply both a state and a place ,• but 
in regard to the locality of either; it makes no revelation. 
But this has nothing to do with the question. God has 
said there is a heaven, or place of happiness, for the righ- 
teous, and a hell, or place of punishment, for the finally im- 
penitent, and this is enough. 

He says that David was not only in hell, but in the low- 
est hell on earth. This we deny ; and if it is shown that 
we are right, all his argument on this falls to the ground. 

It is common, when men have been rescued from im- 
minent danger, to say they have been saved from it. For 
example, a person falls from his horse, his foot is caught 
in the stirrup, his horse runs — he is now in imminent dan- 
ger of death. But a person seizes his horse and saves him 
immediately, he says, " I was delivered from a most hor- 
rid death." So it was with David. He was in imminent 
danger of the lowest hell, of punishment in the future 
world, on account of his sins, but he was saved from it 
literally. And he exclaims that God had delivered him 
from the lowest hell. 

But he says, u the pains of hell got hold on me." What 
does this mean ? A conviction of sin and guilt, and the 
disapprobation of God, which is called by the Redeemer 
the worm that dieth not. And everyone who is guilty, 
feels more or less of the pains and anguish he will eter- 
nally experience, if he is shut out from the presence of 
God, after death. 

Salvation by grace. We again say, the gentleman's as- 
sertions to the contrary notwithstanding, that his system 
does hold that men are not saved from sin by grace at ail ; 
for it holds that no man is saved from sin or from the pen- 



ON UNIVERSALISM. 217 

alty of sin, by any body or any thing. It holds that ev- 
ery person fully meets the demands of the law in his own 
person. The gentleman may deny this. But if he al- 
ludes to it much more, we may have occasion to test the 
truth of the charge, by direct questions. We wiil see if 
he denies. 

Now we proceed to the argument. Mr. D. says we 
bring nothing to prove endless punishment. But he has 
been informed that this is not the point now under consid- 
eration. The point now is, that God's moral government, 
as revealed in the Bible, promises men life.and happiness 
which they cannot fully enjoy in this world, and threatens 
the finally impenitent with privation and misery which 
they cannot fully experience in this world, and hence by 
an absolute necessity it must extend into the future world. 
In proof of this, we have quoted the language of Christ to 
his disciples, "Fear not them which kill the body, but are 
not able to kill the soul ; but rather fear him who is able 
to destroy both soul and body in hell," or in a future state 
of misery. And that the blasphemer is in danger of eter- 
nal damnation. And we have cited the case of the rich 
man, who was in a state of suffering after death and in the 
future world. And Dr. Clarke is with us in all these 
points. And to come still closer, we adduced the case 
of a great number of persons from different nations, who 
were the subjects of the general promises, but who left this 
world in crime ; and we asked the gentleman directly, 1st, 
whether they left this world unholy, and he answered in 
the affirmative— and 2d, whether they could enter heaven 
unholy, and he answered in the negative — and 3d, whether 
they are in a slate of conscious existence from death till 
the resurrection, and he gave an affirmative answer — and 
4th, whether in that state they are happy or miserable; 
but this question you recollect he refused to answer. And 
yet his whole character stands pledged to give answers, 
and we shall hold him responsible to do it: but wave it now. 

But unholiness and misery are inseparably connected; 
and as they went into the eternal world unholy, and are in- 
a state of conscious existence, according to his own admis- 
sion, it follows absolutely that they do suffer in the future 
world. 



218 A DISCUSSION 

Now you see the gentleman is in a great difficulty here. 
And the best thing he could do, was to make a conjecture, 
that all those who went into the future world unholy, had 
in some way or other met with a change. 

This audience will recollect that, a few days since, Mr. 
D. took the ground that all persons, including your hum- 
ble speaker in particular, have to undergo a moral change 
before they can enter heaven, and staked the whole result 
on the change being made in the resurrection. This was 
his strong ground — that the resurrection alone is to effect 
this change. But Mr. Doolittle to-day, entirely refutes 
Mr. Doolittle a few days since, and contradicts him. He 
admits that these persons went into the future world un- 
holy, but says they are changed before the resurrection. 
Nov/ if he was right a few days since, he is, beyond all 
doubt, in an error now. The tru th is, you all see, that he 
is swamped. 

Perhaps he may turn another corner. He may say 
that the resurrection has already taken place; for it is not 
sure but that he will be crowded into that corner yet. Or 
he may say that the resurrection takes place immediately 
after death. But all his former argument will meet him 
in the face, if he undertakes to turn this way. 

Now we have proved from the Bible, and have the au- 
thority of his friend, Dr. Clarke, and the gentleman's own 
admission, that men go into the future world unholy. And 
he says that men cannot be happy if they are unholy. — 
And he has previously taken the ground, most strongly, 
that no change is effected till the resurrection, which is 
yet future, at the final consummation of all things, as he 
has so often told us. Then it follows, with all the force 
of demonstration, and that too from his own arguments and 
admissions, that some men are now in misery in the eter- 
nal world. There is no salvation for the gentleman but 
to retract his position. 

But we proceed with our subject. And as my second 
step in the argument, 1 lay down this proposition: The 
only principle by which man can secure his happiness in 
heaven, and avoid the misery of ihe future world, is, that 
he possess faith and holiness in this life. 



ON UN1VERSALISM. 219 

We cite a text already used, but having a direct bear- 
ing on this point. As we design only to give a specimen 
of the testimony which the sacred record affords, we shall 
not multiply quotations. John iii. 36, " He that believeth 
on the Son hath everlasting life ; and he that believeth not 
the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on 
him." This text shows that the only principle fixed by 
the Almighty, on which man can secure heaven and avoid 
hell, is faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. 

Again, Mark xvi. 15, 16, ik And he said unto them, Go 
ye into all the world and preach the Gospel to every crea- 
ture. He that believeth and is baptised shall be saved ; 
but he that believeth not, shall be damned." 

On this testimony, which is but a mere specimen on this 
point, we remark on the first text, that it teaches that these 
two moral acts, of belief and unbelief, which fix the two 
moral states that are represented in this text, are direct 
counter parts in their effect and in their duration. First, 
faith — by which we mean the faith that works by love 
and purifies the heart, and leads to acts of self-denial and 
continual obedience to God — is inseparably connected, by 
the unerring wisdom of God, with eternal life, the highest 
blessing which the atonement of Jesus Christ provides for 
man, and presents to him in this or the future world. But 
Mr. D. may attempt to start a difficulty, that this life is 
promised in the present tense. But there is no difficulty 
here. This life, means the life of love, joy and peace, that 
is consequent on believing in Jesus Christ. This com- 
mences in the believer's heart as scon as he exercises faith, 
and if he is faithful till death, continues forever. It is 
perfectly appropriate then to say, he that believeth hatk 
eternal life. 

Unbelief and condemnation, or damnation, are the coun- 
ter part, just the opposite of belief and eternal life. We 
have remarked, and the gentleman has not controverted 
the position, that having gospel faith beyond this world is 
impossible. For after this life all is knowledge, every 
thing is visible, and there is no room for this gospel faith. 
Christ, as revealed in the Bible, is the only object of faith, 
and we can have faith in him now from the fact that he is 



220 A DISCUSSION 

not visible; but just the moment the curtain of -mortality is 
dropped, he becomes visible, and is no longer an object of 
faith, but of sight and knowledge; and faith in him then, 
as a pardoning Savior, is absolutely impossible. But he 
that belie veth not shall be damned. And my friend has 
admitted that men have left this world in unbelief, and 
have gone into the future world unholy, where this faith 
cannot be exercised, and as faith is the only condition of 
salvation — eternal life — they must eternally, by an abso-' 
lute necessity, be deprived of eternal life — a state of hap- 
piness and peace in God. [Time expired. 

[mr. doolittle's seventh reply.] 

My Friends. — I have not been particular to mark all 
the meanderings of the course taken by my friend Power, 
because I was aware that he was getting off from the 
question. I could not see that he was adducing any proof 
on the main question. Rut he says he will get to it by 
and by, and I hope he will. But, as yet, we say, he has 
not brought a particle of proof that has a bearing on the 
endless misery of a portion of the human race, in a state 
of immortality. 

I will now notice a statement which he made, concern- 
ing my argument to prove that the sinner could not mer- 
it an infinite or endless punishment. Why does our 
friend take the gronnd that we cannot, by our good works, 
merit endless happiness? Why, simply because we are 
finite. The grace of God has to come in unmerited too, 
to give us eternal life and happiness. But he states that 
the sinner is deserving endless punishment. Now, how 
is this? It is a poor rule that will not work both ways. 
If we cannot deserve endless happiness because we are 
finite, how can we on the same rule, deserve endless mis- 
ery? And there certainly is no principle of God's nature 
to come in and freely bestow upon us misery which we 
do not deserve. 

Now when he will show that we can merit endless hap- 
piness for our good works, I wi iithen acknowledge that 
we can deserve endless misery for our bad works. We 



ON UXIVERSALSirrl. 221 

have just as much ability to do good as we have to do evil, 
hence, if we cannot merit endless happiness for our good 
works, we cannot deserve endless punishment for our bad 
works. This doctrine of endless punishment is one of 
the most monstrous doctrines that ever had a being. To 
which, the desert of sin can have no comparison. But still 
our friend would have you believe that sin requires end- 
less punishment on the score of justice. But this idea is 
at eternal war with justice. 

But the gentleman thinks he has brought proof after 
proof. But we have examined all that he can claim as 
proof. We have showed that the term, rendered soul, in 
Matth.x. 27,28, did not mean the immortal spirit, but 
the animal life. And as to the sin against the Holy Ghost, 
we have proved that this blasphemy had reference to the 
Jewish dispensation. We quoted, too, in accordance with 
our views, Dr. Clarke's opinion on this subject. But he 
says he has brought forward other proof, lie has proved 
that everlasting life is promised, on condition of faith — 
Well, this we believe. But this, you see, is enjoyed in 
the present tense. "He that believeth on me hath eternal 
life. But he that believeth not, the wrath of God abideth 
on him." How long does it abide on him? As long as he 
abideth in unbelief. But has he proved that men will re- 
main in unbelief to all eternity ? If he will bring forward 
one, thus suith the Lord, to show that any will remain in 
unbelief eternally, I will give up the point. The 
wrath of God may rest on the unbeliever to day, and to 
morrow he may become a believer, and enjoy the favor 
of God. 

In confirmation of his point, he quotes Mark xvi. 15, 16. 
"And he said unto them, go ye into all the world, and 
preach the Gospel to every creature. He that believeth 
and is baptised shall be saved, but he that believeth not 
shall be damned." Now, my friends, I want you to no- 
tice this passage, and you will see that it is all confined 
to this world. Christ told his disciples to go forth into 
all the world. "And these signs," he says, "shall follow 
them that believe : In my name shall they cast out devils, 
they shall speak with new tongues. They shall take up 

19 



222 A DISCUSSION 

serpents, and if they drink any deadly thing it shall not 
hurt them — they shall lay hands on the sick and they 
shall recover." Now, suppose I am an Tnfidel, andvlcome 
to my friend Power, who professes to be a believer, and I ask 
him as an unbeliever, for evidence of this fact. I ask him if 
he can cast out devils, or speak with tongues, or drink deadly 
poison, and not be injured by it, or lay hands on the sick and 
they shall recover? Well, can he give me any one of these 
evidences that he is a believer? No! Hence, I come to 
the conclusion that his profession is like a sounding brass 
and a tinkling cymbal. So would the result have been 
with the disciples, had they not been able to give these 
signs. We find on the day of pentecost, when so many 
were converted by the outpouring of the spirit, that they did 
speak with new tongues, that these signs and wonders fol- 
lowed them, and those declarations of our Savior had par- 
ticular reference to that occasion, the Apostolic age. Now, 
one who did not believe when he saw these signs, those 
miraculous gifts, attending the believer, but continued to 
disbelieve the Gospel, should be condemned, he sinned 
against great light. But how long is he condemned? — 
Just as long as he continues a disbeliever, and no longer. 
And, now, as we have said, if our friend will prove that 
any one will disbelieve to all eternity, then he sustains 
his position, but not otherwise. 

Now it is evident, that when all men shall be raised up, 
as we have proved, into the glorious light and liberty of 
the children of God, and shall become equal unto the an- 
gels, and become the children of God, because children of 
the resurrection, there will be no more unbelief abiding 
in any heart. And how can any sinner, or moral delin- 
quent remain after this glorious change? How defence- 
less must our friend's cause be, to lead him to bring for- 
ward passages that have no reference at all to his position. 
Why, I tell you, his cause is a fruitless one, and all his ef- 
forts will prove a perfect failure. It is a failure thus far, 
and I predict it will continue to be so. Not because he 
has failed to do well, or that a more able man could be 
brought forward on his side, but because his cause is at 
war with the truth. The Bible does hot teach his doc- 



ON UNIVERSALIS]*!. 223 

trine, it is at war with the glorious doctrine of salvation 
taught by Jesus Christ. 

The gentleman would make us believe that he is only 
settling some points, but why does he not come right to 
the main point at issue? If we are in such imminent dan- 
ger, right on the brink of destruction, exposed to an end- 
less hell; and if he believes this, why does he not come 
right to the point and show that this is the fact? Why, if 
I believed his doctrine, I would not give sleep to my eyes, 
or slumber to my eyelids, nor take any rest till I had set- 
tled this question in all minds, if I could. But such a doc- 
trine I cannot believe. It is a most monstrous doctrine, 
and it is a source of grief and regret to think that in this 
enlightened age of the world, and in this highly intelligent 
community, that I have found it necessary to come forty 
miles to combat such a doctrine, and to prove that it is ab- 
surd and false. Alas! for the genius of endless misery, 
"she has no head, and cannot think; no heartland cannot 
feel; her prayers are curses; her God is a demon; her 
vengeance is eternity ; her communion is death ; and if she 
stops for a moment in her infernal flight, it is on some 
kindred rock to whether vulture-fangs for keener rapine, 
and replume her wings for more sanguinary desolation." 
And yet the gentleman comes up here and claims credit 
for this doctrine — that it is the peaceable Gospel of Christ. 
When it is a libel on all that bears the name of Gospel. 
A doctrine that maintains that the groans, and tears, and 
anguish of a great portion of our race, will be witnessed 
forever and ever, in the immortal world, the Gospel! Mon- 
strous! I tell you, my friends, this doctrine originated in 
the dark ages. It is of heathenish origin. It has already 
been exposed and utterly exploded in many parts of Chris- 
tendom, and the work is still going on, and I venture to 
predict that within fifty years, this doleful doctrine of end- 
less woe, will not be heard of in the length and breadth of 
our land. 

Our friend says I have admitted, on this floor, that some 
go out of this world unreconciled to God. I have admit- 
ted this, and I believe that hundreds and thousands, and 
millions of heathen have died without any faith in Christ, 



224 A DISCUSSION 

of whom even they have never heard, and without airy 
hope of eternal life. This we admit, and I have also con- 
tended that even our friend Power will leave this world 
not wholly reconciled, and that the best christians that 
ever lived, were not entirely sinless when they left the 
world. 

But I have contended that God, by his mighty power, 
will perfect a change in every heart, and that in the res- 
urrection, all shall be raised incorrupt and pure, and glo- 
rious, and possess God's own moral image of purity. — 
Then our friend here will have no moral defilement attach- 
ed to him, but he, and all redeemed mankind, will be like 
the angels in heaven, pure and holy, and happy, and not 
subject to death, or any evil more. And I referred to Rev. 
to show that ail the intelligent universe shall then shout 
blessing, and honor, and glory, and power, be unto Hi m 
that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb, forever 
and ever. 

Now, as to any concessions that I have made, if he can 
make any capital out of them he is entirely welcome to it. 

My friends, I have much testimony, on my side, bearing 
directly on this question, but I forbear to bring it forward 
now. ] will bring it up occasionally. But I want the 
gentleman to bring forward his proof. And, now, if he 
has strong proof, I hope he will produce it immediately. 

[ Time expired. 



Monday, Aug, 4—9 o'clock, A. M. 



[mr. power's eighth speech.] 

Gentlemen Judges.— Before addressing myself immedi- 
ately to the question under consideration. I beg leave to 
make a few remarks on some incidental matters that it 
may be well to understand to save time and avoid confu- 
sion. And first with reference to the duty of the honora- 
ble judges. The question was suggested by one of them on 



ON UNIVERSALIS^. 225 

Saturday afternoon, whether their office imposed on them 
the duty of deciding whether the disputants were investi- 
gating the points at issue or not. This is a point that is 
of importance clearly to understand. And as far as my 
knowledge extends with reference to discussions of this 
kind, it is not a duty devolving on the judges to decide 
whether the premises taken by either speaker are in point 
or not. This is not a duty that ought to be imposed on 
the judges. It often happens that judges are chosen who 
have very little acquaintance with the study of theology, 
and it would be unreasonable to make it their duty to de- 
cide whether the speaker was pursuing the proper train of 
argument or not to prove his point. They often could 
not do it. The true position then is if one of the speak- 
ers raise the question whether his opponent is speaking to 
the question or not, according to the rules the} have adopt- 
ed, if they cannot settle it they appeal to the judges, and 
give their reasons, and the judges decide the matter. But 
the judges have nothing to do with any such points, till the 
question is raised by the speakers, and their decision is 
appealed to. 

1 have a right to call my respondent to order at any 
time when 1 think he is departing from the question. And 
he has the same right towards me. And when it is ap- 
pealed to the judges, and they hear the reasons on both 
sides, it is then their duty to decide. We make these re- 
marks to save your honors from any undue solicitude in 
this matter, and that the audience may not think that you 
are neglecting your duty if they think we are wandering 
from the question. 

This same question arose in a discussion we had some 
time since, the presiding judge was an aged and talented 
gentleman of the bar, long accustomed to he'ar pleadings, 
and arguments in debate. He decided the points as nam- 
ed above. 

When these principles are observed there is little dan- 
ger of difficulty occuring between the speakers and the 
audience. 

A few words on another point. Mr. D. has charged me 
a number of time3 since I have been on my affirmative, 

19* 



226 A DISCUSSION 

with not coming to the main point. You will tectitittX 
that my friend spoke three days and one hour on his affir- 
mative, and that I did not charge him once with being out 
of order, or of not discussing the main point. And I have 
now spent but one day and half an hour on my affirmative, 
and the note has been sounded by him in almost every 
speech. "Why does he not Come to the point in the ques- 
tion?" Well this is not a strange note. It is a stereoty- 
ped matter on the point of the advocates of Universalism, 
and such little points so often alluded to have their effect 
on a congregation not acquainted with Universal ist tactics 
of theological warfare. 

I might have forestalled the gentleman if I had wished 
to hinder free discussion. You recollect that the main 
point in his affirmative had reference to the condition of 
man in a state of immortality, as much as in my affirma- 
tive. But you will recollect also, that he gave us many 
learned lectures on the creation of man, — the constitu- 
tional Adam, — the life and death of Jesus Christ, — the 
will of God, — the purpose of God, — the sovereignty of 
God. i. e. And I have down on my notes probably not 
less than a dozen chapters of this kind, on all of which I 
might have raised the question, why take up these things 
that have nothing to do with man in a state of immortal- 
ity ? Why not come to the question? But for him to in- 
vestigate the matter thoroughly, I knew he could not 
bring all into one point. 

The argument did not all consist of one point, and he 
told us that it formed a chain. And I was willing he 
should work on which link he chose. 

I have made but two propositions, as premises in my ar- 
gument. And have but one more to make, and then all 
my premises will be laid down. 

So in point of number of propositions, we are far behind 
our honorable opponent. And unless he abjures all con- 
sistency, we hope the enquiry "why dont he come to the 
point?" will not be heard again. 

We do not make these observation in the character of 
complaint, but to save him the necessity of starting again 
his enquiry so often repeated. 



Off UNIVERSALIS**, 227 

We now call attention to our true position on the ques- 
tion before us. 

We stated in the opening of this question, that man is 
an intelligent subject of God's moral govornment, and that 
this government recognizes man's moral accountability in 
this world with reference to his destiny in the future 
world. We then showed that God's revealed word to man 
promised rewards which could not be fully enjoyed in this 
world, and threatened the finally impenitent with priva- 
tion and misery, which could not be fully experienced in 
this life, and of absolute necessity must extend into the fu- 
ture world. 

I adduce proof on the second proposition showing dis- 
tinctly the only condition on which man can escape per- 
dition and misery in the future world, and receive life and 
happiness in heaven: viz. faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, 
that faith which works by love, and purifies the heart. 

We now proceed to show in the third place that as God 
has revealed his will to man, both with reference to time 
and eternity, apprising him of the consequences of sin in 
both worlds, and has revealed the plan by which he can 
avoid sin here, and its consequences hereafter, viz. by faith 
and holiness, so God intends to bring man individually be- 
fore His bar in judgment, there to decide his case ac- 
cording to the use or abuse he has made of his faculties 
for eternity. 

We wave remark on Mr, D's. reply on Saturday eve- 
ning till we have a larger congregation, as Monday morn- 
ing is unfavorable for the people to come out. As consid- 
erable effort was made in that speech, we wish as many to be 
present when its true character is presented, as were 
when it was delivered. It will then be shown that it has 
no force whatever against our position. 

We now take up the third proposition, that God will 
bring every man before his bar in final judgment, and that 
His decision at that time will fix the destiny of each one 
for eternity according to his moral character here on 
earth. 

My first position under this head is, that the Scriptures 
of the Old and New Testaments teach the doctrine of a uni- 



228 a discission 

versal or general judgment, including the case of every 
individual of the human family. As it may save time if 
the gentleman chooses to answer, I will ask him if he a- 
grees with me in this position, that there will he a gen- 
eral judgment, eaying nothing about the time ? [Mr. 
Doolittle answered in the affirmative.] 

I ask him one more question equally fair and as easily 
answered — if he believes that Jesus Christ will be the 
judge in this universal judgment ? [Mr. Doolittle replied 
that he was not prepared to answer this question. ^ I will 
not press the question as he declines answering, but will 
adduce the proof to show that Jesus Christ will be the 
judge in the universal judgment. 2 Cor. v. 10. "For 
we must all appear before the judgment-seat of Christ; that 
every one may receive the things done in his body, accor- 
ding to that he hath done, whether it be good or. bad," 
Here the term all is used with reference to mankind, 
our race, without any restriction whatever, and we main- 
tain that the Apostle includes the whole human race. 
Again: Acts, xvii. 30, 31. "And the times of this igno- 
rance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every 
where to repent. Because he hath appointed a day, in 
the which he will judge the world in righteousness, by that 
man whom he hath ordained: whereof he hath given as- 
surance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the 
dead." That the whole world is included here the gen- 
tleman will not controvert. Neither will he contend that 
the whole world is not included in the passage quoted from 
Cor. And that the Lord Jesus Christ is to be the judge in 
this case no one can doubt. These two points then are 
settled. First that the Scriptures teach that there will 
be a universal judgment of mankind. This the gentle- 
man acceded to. And secondly we have proved that Jesus 
Christ will be the judge at this universal judgment, that 
includes every member of the human race. 

Under this head we are to show that this judgment is 
yet future, and that its final decision will fix man's desti- 
ny for eternity according to his moral character in this 
life. This judgment will take place at the close of the 
constitution of this world, in the final winding up of all its 
aflairs. 






ON UNI VERBALISM. 2 29 

' [Mr. Doolittle here asked Mr Power, if he believed 
that the present world was a state of retribution of re- 
wards and punishment. To which Mr. Power replied that 
he did not.] [Time expired 

[MR. DOOLITTLE'S EIGHTH' REPLY. ^ 

Gentlemen Moderators.— I am at a great loss this morn- 
ing, to know how to occupy my thirty minutes, as our 
j friend has declined replying to my last speech, on Satur- 
j day morning, and has not brought forward any particular 
« proof on his final argument this morning. However, I 
\ would not wish to spend time uselessly, and think it would 
{ be well to take a glance at the progress we have made 
\ thus far on this question Our friend, in the outset on his 
•j affirmative, took the position, that under the moral govern- 
ImentofGod, in this world, man is threatened with pun- 
\ ishment for sin, which cannot be fully endured in this 
j world; and, therefore, must be endured in a future world, 
j This position I deny. But I want you to bear in mind 
•j wherein we are at issue. I admit, with him, that all men 
j as rational and moral beings, are subjects of the moral 
) government of God in this world, and are responsible to 
1 that government for their actions. 1 admit that God, un- 
] der his moral government over moral beings in this world, 
threatens them with punishment for sin. But I contend^ 
i that such threatening extends only to this, and not to a fu- 
! ture world. Our friend quoted several passages, which 
! he thinks, prove his position— he quoted concerning being 
destroyed, both soul and body, in hell, and the sin against 
j: the Holy Ghost, and the rich man and Lazarus — and we 
l have weighed them all in the balance, and found them 
wanting. 

Again: cur friend takes a position which he thinks has 
shearing on the final issue, viz: That the Scriptures of 
\ the Old and New Testaments teach a universal judgment. 
Well, I admitted this. But notwithstanding my admission, 
! he brings forward the proof. He goes further; he proves 
that Jesus Christ is to be judge of all men at this judgment. 
Well, I fully admit the fact, and do not wish to controveu 



230 A DISCUSSION 

the point with him. But here is the issue. My friend 
says that this universal judgment is future, and is to take 
place in a state of immortality. This we deny. Remem- 
ber, I admit the universality of the judgment, and though 
hand join in hand, the wicked shall not go unpunished. — 
But this punishment I contend is in this world — here we 
are at issue. And, in order to show that he is wrong, and 
I am right, I shall prove that it is in this world that sin- 
ners are punished. The gentleman, in answer to my 
question, says that he does not believe that this world is a 
state of rewards and punishment. Here the gentleman is 
in the wrong, and I am going to prove it; and you, my 
friends, are to be the judges, and I want you to lay aside 
prepossessed prejudices, and render a righteous verdict. — 
We have not come here to decide this matter according to 
our creeds, but according to arguments, drawn from the 
Scriptures, and we should decide as in the presence of 
God, and according to the light of Divine truth. 

I will now endeavor to show that the universal judgment 
is not in the future world. 

And, first, I will examine some texts our friend has 
quoted. 2d Cor. v. 10. "For we must all appear before 
the judgment seat of Christ, that every one may receive 
the things done in his body according to that he hath 
done, whether it be good or bad." Now mark this lan- 
guage. Does it say any thing about a judgment in a fu- 
ture world? Not a word! But where are the rewards 
and punishments to be received? And where is this judg- 
ment to take place? In the body or out of the body? In 
this or a future world? Why it is in the body where men 
perform the acts for which they are rewarded or punish- 
ed. To understand this passage better, we will leave out 
the italics which are not in the original. The translators 
put them in, no doubt, according to the influence on their 
minds, as in many other cases, they have done. In many 
places they have obscured the sense by their additions, 
instead of making it any plainer; and, at other times, have 
not expressed the sense of the original, in the best man- 
ner. This is admitted by many able commentators, and 
hence, the necessity of a new translation. Our Baptist 



ON UNIVERSALIS!*!. 231 

frienas have given a new translation, making many alter- 
ations and improvements — for example: the word baptise, 
they have translated immerse, according to its true mean- 
ing. Hence, I say, the language here, leaving out the 
words which the translators have added, which have no 
place in the original, is clear and definite that the rewards 
are to be received in the body in the present world, and 
not in the spirit world. 1 will read it, leaving out the 
supplied words. "For we must all appear before the judg- 
ment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things 
in body, according to that he hath done, whether good or 
bad." There is no reference here to the future world. — 
Each one is to receive the things in body. Where a man 
sows there he shall reap. "He that soweth to the flesh 
shall of the flesh reap corruption, but he that soweth to 
the spirit shall of the spirit reap life everlasting." The 
retribution is meted out in the body, not out of it. And 
this harmonizes with other passages of Scripture relative 
to the judgment. Now, I am going to show that the judg- 
ment is in this world, if there is any truth in the Bible. 
■ Elder Power says he lays no claim to infalibility — neither 
do I. But. you are to remember, it is not his opinion, nor 
mine, that is to decide this matter, but the Bible. 

Now my proof shall be plain, and to the point, and no 
conditions in the case. The first testimony [ quote, is 
Eccle. iii. 16, 17. "And moreover, I saw under the sun 
the place of judgment, that wickedness was there; and the 
place of righteousness ,that iniquity was there. 1 said in 
my heart, God shall judge the righteous and the wicked: 
for there is a time there for every purpose, and for every 
work." 

This text declares, unequivocally, that the place of judg- 
ment is under tlie sun. Why under the sun? Because 
wickedness ivas there, and the place of righteousness. — - 
This, I have said, is to the point, but 1 will not rest all my 
proof here, I have more of it. Said the Savior, "Now is 
the judgment of this world." And do you not see that our 
friend Power and the Savior are at direct issue here? Our 
friend says the judgment is yet future, but the Savior 
says "Now is the judgment of this world, and now shall 



. 



222 A DISCUSSION 

the prince of this world be castout,'' — John xii. 31. Now 
we are to look on this, not to the future world, for the 
judgment. 

Again: it is evident, from the declaration of Christ, that 
the judgment of his administration commenced with the 
opening of his mission, the commencement of the Gospel 
day, and will continue during his whole reign. God has 
appointed a day, we are told in Acts, in which he will 
judge the world in righteousness. This day is evidently 
the Gospel day. The reign of Christ, and this accords 
with what is said in Isa. xlii. 4. "He shall not fail nor 
be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and 
the isles shall wait for his law." 

The judgment, in its proper sense, is to pass upon all 
men. But this judgment has been going forward from 
the commencement of the Gospel dispensation until now, 
and it will continue to go on till the end of time; for there 
is a God that judgeth in the earth. Though our friend 
says it is in a future world. This is his opinion, but his 
opinion is not what we want. What do the Scriptures 
teach? is the inquiry. And we find that they teach the 
opposite of what our friend teaches, on this subject. 

We now proceed to produce other proof, by way of an- 
swering his affirmative, in favor of the ultimate holiness of 
all men in a state of immortality. And the argument is 
one 1 hope he will attend to. I quote 1st John iii. 3. "He 
that committeth sin is of the devil, for the devil sinneth 
from the beginning; for this purpose the Son of God was 
manifested, "that he might destroy the works of the devil." 
Again: Heb. ii. 14, 15. "For as much then as the child- 
ren are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself like- 
wise took part of the same; that through death he might 
destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil. 
And deliver them who, through fear of death, were all 
their lifetime subject to bondage." Now it is clear, from 
these passages, that the works of the devil and the devil 
himself shall be destroyed. How, then, can our friend 
make out that the wicked shall be punished after the de- 
vil and his works are destroyed? But he contends that 
the devil will not be destroyed, but will exist as long as 



ON UNIVERSALISM. 233 

, iGod exists. But the Scriptureclearly proves, as we have 

seen, that the devil and his works shall both be destroyed. 

I will now adduce some Scripture that goes directly 

against endless punishment. Psalm ciii. 8, 9. "The 

Lord is merciful and gracious ; slow to anger, and plenteous 

in mercy. He will not alwayschide; neither will he keep 

. his anger for ever. 7 ' Lam. iii. 31, 32. "For the Lord will 

I not cast off forever; but though he cause grief, yet will he 

have compassion according to the multitude of his mercies.'' 

t , Isa.lvii. 16. "For I will not contend for ever, neither will I 

be always wroth: for the spirit should fail before me, and 

the souls which 1 have made." The argument here, is, 

that God will not contend forever, by way of punishment, 

neither be always wroth: and the reason assigned, is, the 

spirit would fail before Him, and the souls which He has 

i made. Now, two positions, diametrically opposed, can- 

J not both be true; one of them must be false. If it be true 

that God will not contend for ever, nor cast off for ever, 

I it cannot be true that he will contend for ever, and always 

4 be wroth, the punishment never cease. [Time expired. 

a) 

[mr. power's ninth speech.] 

Gentlemen Judges. — With reference to the gentleman's 
last quotations from Ps., Lam. and isa., we place them in 
a class by themselves, as he has brought them up in proof 
of his question, which he declined doing when on his af- 
firmative, and will take them up at the proper time, and 
dispose of them if not to his satisfaction, yet we hope, to 
the satisfaction of this community. 

The gentleman has quoted from 1 John and Hebrews 
i to show that the Savior will destroy the devil and his 
works. He said I did not believe these texts. I believe 
every text in the Bible. But do not believe that de- 
struction here means absolute annihilation. In regard 
to this, however, when he will define what he means by 
the devil, and by his works, I will show that his interpre- 
tation is false, and that these texts afford no support to his 
system. Till then I shall pass it without any further re- 
marks. 

20 



234 A DISCUSSION 

On his counter proof from John xii. 31, "Now is the 
judgment of this world : now shall the prince of thig 
world be cast out." And of Isa. xlii. 4. " He shall not fail, 
nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: 
and the isles shall wait for his law." — I have only to 
make a few explanatory remarks. The term judgment 
in the Holy Scriptures is used with some variety of sig- 
nification. In some places it means simply — the law of 
God, or God's will to man as published in His revealed 
word, and it is in this sense the prophet uses the term 
here. He shall not fail or be discouraged, till he hath 
set up his 'divine will, rule or law in the world among 
men. 

Again — the infinite wisdom of God uses the same term, 
judgment; in reference to His administration amongst 
kingdoms and nations in this world. He visits them with 
his judgments . Nations have to be punished in their na- 
tional character, because their offence is national. But 
this has nothing to do with individuals in the final judg- 
ment. 

There are other uses of this term, but I only notice a 
third application. It is used to denote the time of God's- 
decision of each man's case, fixing his final destiny for 
eternity, according to his moral character in this life. — 
This is God's final judgment and retribution. The decla- 
ration of Christ, "Now shall the prince of this world be 
judged," derives its plausibility, in iavor of the gentle- 
man's position, if it has any, by assuming that the Lord 
uses the term judgment in this latter sense. This we de- 
ny. And it devolves on him to prove this before the text 
avails him any thing. But some understand him to mean 
that this world is now sitting in judgment on its prince, 
and that it was deciding to crucify him. But he says, 
" Notwithstanding I am crucified, though now the world 
judges me, and though I be lifted up, yet I will finally draw 
all men unto me. The scene shall be reversed, and I will 
bring all men before me in the final judgment, and decide 
the case, and fix the destiny of each for eternity, accord- 
ing to his doings in this world." 

A word now on his quotations from Eccl. iii. 16, 17. — 



ON UNIVERSALISM. 235 

The gentleman wished to have special attention paid to 
this passage. u Moreover I saw under the sun the place 
of judgment, that wickedness was there." What does he 
say about judgment for this wickedness? I said in mine 
heart, God is now judging the righteous and the wicked ? 
He should say so to help the gentleman ; for it will help 
him in no shape, if read any other way. But he does not 
say so. How does the passage read ? "I said in mine 
heart God shall judge the righteous and the wicked." God 
shall, in the future, judge this world, and decide eternally 
the case of each according to his works here — u for there 
is a time for every purpose and for every work." 

And as corroborative proof of my position, and to cor- 
rect the gentleman's misapplication of the text, see Heb. 
ix. 27 — " And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but 
after this the judgment." To settle the fact, that the 
judgment is future and not in this world, the inspired wri- 
ter has fixed its time after death. And this, as Dr. Clarke 
tells us, is to be understood literally in reference to death 
in this world and final retribution in the future world. So 
much for his counter proof. 

A word with reference to his comments on the text we 
quoted from 2 Cor. v. 10. On this he censures the trans- 
lators. I was aware that he would try to get away from 
the Book, or impugn its authority. We thought quite 
likely he will find this Scripture very much in his way. 
He tells us that our Baptist friends have found it necessa- 
ry, on account of the many defects in the Bible, to make a 
new translation ; and he gave as an instance of its defects, 
the word baptism, which should be immersion. But this 
is not a defect in translation — for the word is not transla- 
ted but transferred from the original ; and our Baptist 
brethren have seen fit to translate it. It is conceded by 
all able critics, that the defects in our common translation 
are very slight. 

But let us read this passage, leaving out the italicised 
words: " For we must all appear before the judgment seat 
of Christ 5 '— (this he admits is a universal judgment, and he 
will not deny that Christ is the judge) — "that every one 
may receive the things in body, according to that he 



236 A DISCUSSION 

hath done, whether good or bad." Well, leaving out the 
words in italics, which we do not object to, it reads that 
men, in the judgment, shall receive in their bodies the 
things, the treatment or decision that shall accord with 
what they did in the state of trial in the flesh, in this 
world. And what are the facts in the case ? Why, the 
trump of God shall sound, and the dead shall be raised, 
shall come forth with their resurrection bodies, and shall 
be judged and receive their final retribution of rewards 
and punishment according to their deeds done before death, 
in the very same bodies that are changed by the resur- 
rection. This text is as the noon-day sun, without a cloud, 
in proof of our position. 

A word in regard to his interpretation of the answer 
we gave him. He inquired if I believed the righteous and 
the wicked were rewarded in this world. Understanding 
him to mean rewarded in the highest sense in which the 
Bible teaches rewards, we answered in the negative. We 
hold that men are under God's moral government here, 
and in a state of trial, and as such, He blesses, comforts, 
chastises, or punishes men here, according to the princi- 
ples of His government and the moral character and con^ 
dition of man in a state of probation for the future world'. 
We believe, too, that individuals as well as nations become 
so abandoned in crime, as to make it necessary for God to 
come out in judgment, and sorely afflict, or cut them off 
from the earth. But all this is not the final retribution, 
that fixes man's destiny for eternity. 

We now adduce additional proof. And we lay down 
this rule : Any interpretation of the word of God that con- 
tradicts matters of fact, and the general tenor of the holy 
Scriptures, must absolutely be false, and should be rejec- 
ted. And we hold that the gentleman's interpretation of 
the judgment, making it progressive, stands out in bold op- 
position to matters of fact, and contradicts the general ten- 
or of the Scriptures. 

The judgment he has admitted to be universal judgment, 
including the entire human race. And it cannot be past, 
for it then could not be a universal judgment, because it 
would exclude nations yet unborn. Then his position k 



ON UNIVERSALIS!^! 237 

that it is progressive ; that it commenced with the com- 
mencement of our race; that it has progressed with the 
progression of our race, and that it never will terminate 
till the termination of our race on earth. This position 
contradicts matters of fact, and the whole tenor of the Bi- 
ble, and involves an absolute impossibility. If we prove 
this, his position goes to the winds of heaven, 

I have proved to you that Jesus Christ is to be the judge 
in this universal judgment. And the gentleman has said, 
and for good reason, that he will not controvert this posi- 
tion. And his system maintains that Jesus Christ had no 
literal and personal being for about four thousand years of 
the world's history ; that a little more than eighteen hun- 
dred years ago, he was born in the land of Judea, and that 
he had no personal existence till that time. Now it is ab- 
solutely impossible that a being who had no existence for 
four thousand years of the world's history, could have 
judged, at the time of their existence, those who lived dur- 
ing that time. Yet Mr. I), says the judgment commenced 
with the beginning of our race, and has been progressive 
ever since — and still, for four thousand years of this time 
j the judge was not in existence. 

Jesus Christ, as God manifest in the flesh, and Redeem- 

' er of the world, made his appearance 1800 years ago, and 

to say that he was a judge of the world, and decided the 

case of men for eternity before he redeemed the world, is 

a flat contradiction. 

Again, it contradicts the whole tenor of the word of God. 
! The Scriptures represent Jesus Christ as literally sitting 
, in judgment in the case of every individual in the world, 
l at the last day. Matt. xxv. 31 — " When the Son of man 
I shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, 
1 then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory." Again — 
: Acts i. 9 — 11. "And when he had spoken these things, 
while they beheld, he was taken up ; and a cloud received 
him out of their sight. And while they looked steadfast- 
ly toward heaven, as he went up, behold, two men stood 
by them in white apparel, which also said, ye men of Gal- 
ilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven ? This same Je- 

20* 



238 A DISCUSSION " 

sus which is taken up from you into heaven, shall s&mrrib 
in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven." 

Here it is shown that Jesus Christ shall come as liter- 
ally in the presence of all whom he is to judge, as lie as- 
cended up to heaven. 

But he is to judge every one of our race. But he has 
never appeared in the case of every individual, for his ap- 
pearing is to be literal, in glory, with all the holy angels 
with him ; so that every person must know when he comes. 
It follows then that he has not yet judged the world, and 
the gentleman's position is wholly wrong. 

[ Time expired. 

[mr, doolittle's ninth reply.] 

I want you my friends, to bear in mind, the points at is- 
sue between my friend and myself. The position he has 
taken this morning is, that the Scriptures teach a univer- 
sal judgment. This I have admitted. But still he thought 
fit to prove that this judgment is to be executed by Jesus 
Christ. I have admitted this also. But he claims that 
he has proved by his Scripture quotations that this judg* 
ment executed upon all men wilt take place in the future 
world. Now I deny that the Scriptures he has quoted 
proves any such thing. I have showed that the day God 
has appointed, in which to judge the world in righteousness, 
is the Gospel clay — that it commenced with the Gospel dis- 
pensation, and would continue to its end, embracing the 
whole mediatorial reign of Jesus Christ. And in proof 
of this position I quoted. "Now is the judgment of this 
world, now shall the prince of this world be judged ;" and 
stated that this was in accordance with the declaration of 
the prophet who says. "He shall not fail nor be discour- 
aged, till he shall have set judgment in the earth, and the 
isles shall wait for his lav/." Now let it be distinctly un- 
derstood that the Gospel day, is the day of God's judg- 
ment of the world by JesusChrist, and that this judgment 
is confined to this world, I have shown from the very 
passage (2 Cor. v. 10.) our friend brought forward to prove 
the universality of the judgment, or rather Paul shows* 



ON ITNIVJ'.RSALISM, 239 

that we are to receive the things in the body, in this world 
according to that we have done. And our friend in at- 
tempting to do away the power of my argument made a 
complete failure. 

He says on this text. "Now is the judgment of this 
world, now shall the prince of this world be judged," that 
this has reference to the world judging Jesus Christ, and 
not to Christ as judging the world. The gentleman had 
just been telling us that Jesus Christ would judge the world, 
and now turns right about and tells us that this is the 
world judging Jesus Christ ! I would thank him for a lit- 
tle more light on the subject. Where does he find that 
this world is to judge Jesus Christ ? It may however be 
the best turn and twist he could give it. And 1 hope that 
he will come to the conclusion the sign "All kinds of twist- 
ing and turning done here" is now at his door, and not ov- 
er mine. 

Again: I want to call the attention of our friend, once 
more to Ecci. iii. 16, 17, I quoted this text and others to 
show that the judgment is in this world. And if this text 
does not prove my position, then proof of any position can- 
not be brought from the Bible. "And moreover I saw 
under the sun the place of judgment, that wickedness 
was there ; and the place of righteousness, that iniquity 
was there." Now there ^re two distinct propositions in 
this text. First it is positively asserted, that the place of 
judgment is under the sun. And secondly it 'is asserted, 
as a reason why it is under the sun, that wickedness and 
righteousness are there. It is necessary that the judg- 
ment should be where the wickedness and the righteous- 
ness are. The writer furthermore asserts, to show the 
judgment takes place under the sun. That, "there is a 
time there (under the sun) for every purpose and for every 
work." Iftherebea time for every purpose and for ev- 
ery work, then there is a time there for the judgment like- 
wise. 

You will remember that our friend, when I asked for 
his opinion, said he did not believe that this world 
was a state of retribution of rewards and punishments. He 
said also, that the sinner was not punished in this life, but 



240 A DISCUSSION 

was reserved for the future world. I then adduced some 
plain passages simply to prove that there is a God that 
judgeth in the earth, and that he has established his judg- 
ment in the earth, that righteousness was rewarded here 
and wickedness punished here in the earth. 

The gentlemen saw that I had proved this, and he be- 
gan to back out of his position, by saying that the crimes 
of individuals and nations, might be so great, that God 
may punish them in this world. But I am not going to 
let him off so easy — God has established the fact that this 
world is the place of retribution. And the experience of 
the world, and the history of our race go to establish the 
fact that there is a God • hat judgeth in the earth. 

Whatsaith the Bible? Prov. xi. 31. "Behold the 
righteous shall be recompensed in the earth, much more 
the wicked and the sinner. " Now this Scripture is true 
or it is false. But if the position that our friend takes, in 
reference to the judgment, be true, then this language of 
the Bible is false, for it sayeth that the present is not a state 
of retribution. And the words of the wise man are to be 
taken before our friend's. 

As additional proof of our position we quote from the 
Bible. "The way of the transgressor is hard." 

Now if the way of the transgressor was peaceful and 
calm, 1 would admit that he was not punished in this world 
for his sins. But Solomon tells us that the way of the 
transgressor is hard. The Prophet tells us, "the wicked 
are like the troubled sea when it cannot rest, whose wat- 
ers casteth up mire and dirt." "There is no peace saith 
my God to the wicked." 

Now you see in the world, confirmation of this truth. 
The reward of the righteous is peace, and joy in the Holy 
Ghost. We see that indignation and wrath, tribulation 
and anguish, is upon. every soul of man that doeth evil of 
the Jew first and also of the Gentile, for there is no res- 
pect of persons with God. 

But when does all this take place 1 in the future world? 
No, but in this world. Now it is strange that our friend 
does not see this, and stranger still that he should take a 
position that is controverted by ail enlightened orthodox 



0N : UNIVERSALIS!*!. 24T 

theologians in Christendom. I do not say that the Calvin- 
istic divines admit that the present is fully a state of retri- 
bution — that the righteous is fully rewarded here — or 
the wicked fully puished; but they admit that such is the 
fact in part. 

[mr. power's tenth- speech.] 

Gentlemen Moderators, — A few passing remarks on 
his last speech. He does not deny, he says, that there is 
to be a universal judgment. But this judgment means the 
Gospel-day. And here we ask him, does the Gospel-day 
go back before the birth of Christ in this world? [Mr. 
Doolittie replied, that he held that Christ was slain from 
the foundation of the world.] Well, we are at an impor- 
tant points which perhaps might as well be settled now. — 
To do this, we propose a few questions, which only re- 
quire an answer, yes, or no. [Mr. Doolittie here stated 
again his reservation, that he did not feel bound to answer 
every question directly.] We recollect his reservation, 
that he is not bound to answer questions he knows nothing 
about. But the questions to be proposed are in point in 
his system, and which he doubtless is prepared to answer. 
And mark, when we speak of Jesus Christ, we include his 
entire character as revealed in the Bible. And by his 
works we include all that he has done as the Savior of 
sinners. 

I now ask the gentleman if he believes that Jesus Christ, 
by all that he has done and suffered from the foundation of 
the world, redeems man from the danger of eternal pun- 
ishment in- the future world ? [Mr. Doolittie answered 
emphatically, No. ] This is a distinct answer, and we 
hope all will remember it. Does Jesus Christ, in all he 
has done and suffered for our race, redeem and save man 
from the punishment of his sins in this world 1 [Mr. Doo- 
littie replied— ki No, not at all. He did not come for that 
purpose,- he came to save men Prorrv their sins, and not 
from the danger of punishment for their sins."] Well 
that is a plain answer. I have but one more question to- 
ask him under this head* Does his system hold that Jesus* 



242 A DISCUSSION 

Christ possesses an unoriginated and Divine nature 7 [Mr, 
Doolittle replied that this question had to do with the doc- 
trine of the Trinity, but nothing to do with the discus- 
sion.] The gentleman refuses to answer the question, 1 
have a right to require an answer, but will waive it. — 
This point, frequently stated during the discussion, is now 
settled; that is, that Jesus Christ, according to Mr. D 's 
position, is in no sense a Savior from the punishment due 
to sin in this, or the future world ; and that if he is a Savior 
at all, it must be from the commission and practice of sin 
in this world. But that he does not save all men from the 
practice of sin in this world, was fully shown by Mr. D, 
himself in his last speech, in the case of the antediluvians, 
and others since the flood. Hence, if Jesus Christ does not 
save men from the practice and the punishment of sin in 
this nor the future world, he does not save them at all, 
and consequently he is absolutely rejected by the gentle- 
man from being a Savior. Our friend, in trying to escape 
a difficulty, brought up the case of the Sodomites, to prove 
that retribution takes place in this world. They were too 
wicked to live on the earth, and God came down in wrath, 
and in an awful manner hurried them into eternity. Now 
if they were too corrupt to live on the earth, where did 
they go to ? Were they taken to heaven ? . 

A. word on his remarks upon our answer to his question: 
Does God judge men in this or in the future world 1 This 
we explained before, by stating that the term judgment is 
used in various senses in the Bible. First — His law as a 
rule of faith toman in this world. Second — It means 
God's universal administration in his kingdom of providence 
and grace, by which he inflicts punishments and bestows 
blessings on individuals and nations in this world, but not 
the final retributions of eternity. Hence the gentleman's 
illustrations in the case of the antediluvians, the Sodomites 
and the Jews, are in perfect accordance with our views, 
as expressed when on the floor before. And we maintain 
that these are not the final retributions which they will 
receive at the bar of God. 

[Mr. DooUttle here arose and said he wanted definitely 



ON UNIVERSAL1SM. 243 

to understand the gentleman, and put the question direct- 
ly, whether he believed that the sinner was punished for 
sin in this world 1 Mr. Power replied that this would not 
\ admit of a direct answer ; said that he had stated that God 
... punished men for their sins in this world, but not finally, 
, Mr. Doolittle then emphatically repeated his question, to 
which Mr. Power replied — " Partially"] 

This is precisely the same position occupied when I first 
j answered the question. I was explaining the use of the 
I lev m judgment. A third use of the term — It means the 
final judgment at the winding up of ail sublunary affairs, 
when God will fix man's destiny to all eternity, according 
i to the moral character with which he left this world. This 
i was my answer to his first question. You recollect his 
j last speech was based wholly on the ground that I deny 
] all interference of God to punish individuals or nations in 
I this world. But in this he made my position for me, and 
j brought ail his strength down like an avalanche on a po- 
| sition of his own imagination. 

On Prov. xi. 31. "Behold the righteous shall be re- 

I compensed in the earth ; much more the wicked and the 

I sinner." This declaration is in perfect harmony without 

views, as we have explained them. The man who lives 

in sin and guilt, deprives himself of the love and favor of 

God, lives under his displeasure, and is an unhappy mail; 

i while the truly pious man, who spends his life in serving 

l - God, is happy while he lives, and he dies in peace. This 

is what we understand the text to mean, and that it says 

nothing about the final retribution. 

But once more: The text either includes all that God 
intends to do for the righteous or the wicked, or it does 
not. There is no sophistry in this statement; and the 
consequences cannot be avoided. If he says it does not in- 
clude ail God intends to d© for the righteous or the wick- 
ed, he gives up his ground. And there is no alternative 
but to take the other horn of the dilemma — that this text 
states all that God intends to do for the righteous or the 
wicked in time or in eternity. If he contends that the 
righteous will be more happy in the future world than in 



1244 A ^DISCUSSION 

this, or the wicked more miserable, then this is only & 
partial retribution. But if he takes the opposite ground, 
he has to tell the righteous that they are, in this world, in 
all the heaven they will ever enjoy. 

For the principle which this text recognizes, and which 
cannot be overthrown, is, if the sinner receives in this 
world all the punishment that the Bible threatens — on the 
same principle, the righteous will receive and enjoy, in 
this world, all the happiness that the Bible promises. So 
if the gentleman's position be true, that this text teaches a 
full and not a partial retribution, it is of no consequence 
whether the pious stay in this world or go to heaven. — 
Such are some of the glaring absurdities involved in at- 
tempting to confine the final judgment to this world. 

[ Thirty minutes not all occupied. Adjourned* 

(mr. doolit.tle's tenth reply.] 

I want now to have you bear in mind the positions we 
occupy at this stage of the debate. In the former part of 
the day our friend Power labored to prove a general 
judgment in the future world. He quoted several texts to 
prove it; but unfortunately for him every text he has quo- 
ted fails to answer his purpose. One passage which he 
supposes proves a future judgment, which we have not no- 
ticed is recorded in Heb. ix. 27. "And as it is appointed 
unto men once to die, but after this the judgment." Now 
my friends there is nothing more clear, from the context 
than that this passage has no reference to the condition of 
man in the future world. The Apostle is here contrasting 
the legal dipensation and the priesthood of Aaron with its 
rites and ceremonies and offices, with the Christian dis- 
pensation and the priesthood of Christ. Hence it has no 
reference to a future state at all. And the death here spo- 
ken of has no reference to a natural death. But it has 
reference to the death which the priests under the law fig- 
uratively died in the sacrifice or atonement which he made 
for the people. It was customary for the priests, once a 
year, to enter into the holy of holies to make atonement for 
the sins of the whole house of Israel. And when he eu- 



ON UNIVERSALIS!*!. 245 

"tered this place, he bore on his breast the breast plate of 
judgment, which had inscribed in it names of the twelve 
tribes of Israel. On the border of his garments were lit- 
tle bells. After he had made the atonement, and the sacri- 
fice was accepted, then came the decision or judgment. 
The term judgment here in the text means decision. To 
make known to the people that the atonement was made 
and the sacrifice accepted, and the high priest yet lived, he 
gave a sound with the bells on the border of his garment, 
and on hearing it the whole camp of Israel gave a shout 
of joy. Now this atonement was a type of the general 
atonement which was made by Jesus Christ, for the 
sins of the whole world. So says the Apostle here. "And 
as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the 
judgment. " As it is appointed unto men once to die under 
the figure of sacrifice, referring to the atonement made by 
! the high priest, and after this the decision. So Christ 
was once offered for the sins of the whole world, and thus, 
as it was with the high priest, it shall be announced that 
i this sacrifice is accepted, the atonement made for the whole 
, world, and Jesus Christ the great high priest still lives, to 
i make intercession for us. Thus you see this text affords 
J our friend no support to his position. 

lie has quoted, to prove that the judgment is in the fu- 
ture world, Matt. xxv. 31. "When the Son of man shall 
come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then 
shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:" Now when is 
■ -this to take place? Is it at the end of time? Or has it ref- 
: -erence to Christ's coming figuratively to judgment in this 
world? I take the position that it has no reference to the 
; future world. It is true we read that Christ shall come in 
I the glory of his Father with his holy angels, and that he 
i shall reward every man according to his works. But the 
, time of his coming is definitely fixed by Christ himself, 
! Matt, xvi, 27 — 28., "For the son of man shall come in 
* the glory of his Father, with his angels; and then he shall 
reward every man according to his works. V T erily I say 
unto you. There be some standing here, which shall not 
, taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his 
kingdom."" This shows conclusively, that the judgment 

21 



246 A DISCUSSION 

is to take, place in this world* and not in a future world; for 
it is here said that it is to take place during the life-time of 
some that were a then present. 

I hope, after this, that our friend Power will not con- 
tend further for a future judgment when Christ says that 
it commenced nearly eighteen hundred years ago. 

We want you to bear in mind that we have put the ve- 
to'of annihilation on our friends system. We have admit- 
ted the universality of the judgment, and have shown 
where this judgment is to take place. We have proved 
that the judgment is in this world, where wickedness and 
righteousness are. This is according to reason and our 
cwn experience, and the words of inspiration which teach- 
es that there is a God that "judgeth in the earth," and 
"Now is the judgment of this world." I proved from 2 
Cor. v. 10, "For we must all appear before the judgment- 
seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things 
in body, according to that he hath done, whether it be 
good or bad." For he hath appointed a day in which he 
will judge the world in righteousness by that man (Jesus 
Christ) whom he hath ordained, and this day is the (jospel 
day, embracing the whole extent of the mediatorial reign 
of Christ, from the commencement of our race, to the fi- 
nal consummation of all things, when Christ himself shall 
become subject to the Father, that God may be all in all. 
The result of this judgment will be the rewarding of every 
man according to his works, the destruction of sin, bring- 
ing in everlasting righteousness, fitting souls for the in- 
dwelling of the holy spirit of God. Hence let us rejoice in 
view of this glorious event, 

Now as farther proof that the judgment is in this world, 
that men are punished here for their sins. I will quote 
Heb. ii. 1— -3. "Therefore we ought to give the more ear- 
nest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any 
time we should let them slip. For if the word spoken by 
angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedi- 
ence received a just recompence of reward; how shall we 
escape, if we neglect so great a salvation; which at the 
first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed 
unto us by them that heard him.'" This shows that this 



ON UNIVERSALISM. 247 

world is a state of retribution where every transgression 
and disobedience shall receive a just recompense of re- 
ward. The Aposile says, "How shall we escape if we 
neglect so great salvation?" 

Again: I quote 1st Peter iv. 15 — 18. "But let none of 
you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, 
or as a busy-body in other men's matters. Yet if any man 
suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him 
glorify God on this behalf. For the time is come that 
judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first 
begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not 
the Gospel of God? And if the righteous scarcely be sa- 
ved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?'' 1 
Now take notice that Peter tells us that eighteen hund- 
1 red years ago, the time had come when judgment must 
| begin at the house of God. And yet our friend tells us 
' that it is yet future. But mark, it was to begin with them, 
I with him, and those to whom he was writing. And, my 
iriends, you should remember that this has no reference 
\ to the future world. When we get home to heaven, we 
I will not have to say we were scarcely saved. That will 
I be a salvation to all intents and purposes. 

But the salvation here spoken of, in connection with the 

[ judgment, was a salvation from the judgment that was 

about to come on the Jewish nation, and from it they 

would scarcely be saved. This judgment is spoken of in 

i Matth. xxiv. The city of Jerusalem was to be destroyed, 

1 and the Jews to be dispersed among ail nations of the 

I earth, and there was to be great tribulation, such as had 

not been from the beginning of the world to that time, 

i and never should be again. This day of vengeance was 

\ at hand when Peter wrote, and from it the righteous 

J would scarcely be saved. How were they saved! — 

| Jerusalem was encompassed with the Roman army, under 

! Titus, who pressed the seige so close that there seemed 

no way for escape for any one in the city. But the news 

reached Titus that his father, Vespatian, was dangerously 

sick, and he went immediately to Rome. And the Roman 

armyj withdrew for a time from] the seige. It was 

during this time that the Christians left the city and es- 



248 A DISCUSSION 

caped to places of safety. Thus you see they were scarce- 
ly saved; for Titus immediately returned and pressed the 
seige with renewed vigor, and thousands were destroyed 
by famine, pestilence, and the sword, and the remainder 
were carried away and sold into bondage. [Time expired. 

[mk. power's eleventh speech.] 

Gentlemen Judges and the Congregation. — It cannot 
have escaped your notice, the great embarrassment under 
which my worthy respondent labored in his last speech. — 
He was completely in the fog during his whole effort. But 
we call him back to his proof text— Prov. xl 31 — u Be- 
hold the righteous shall be recompensed in the earth ; 
much more the wicked and the sinner ; " and remark that 
according to my friend's favorite author, Dr. Clarke, the 
passage in Pet., translated, " And if the righteous scarcely 
be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?" 
is a transcript from the Septuagint translation of Prov. xi. 
31. And the literal translation of the Hebrew, he says, 
is, ••« Behold, to the righteous it shall be returned on the 
earth ; and also to the wicked and the transgressor." 

You recollect the dilemma made for the gentleman, on 
this text : That it either includes ail the rewards of the 
righteous, and all the punishment of the wicked, or it does 
not. And you have observed that in hb last speech he 
kept as far from it as possible. If he maintains that it 
teaches the final retribution of the righteous and the wick- 
ed, then the righteous will have all their happiness in this 
world, and the sinner all his punishment — then heaven is 
no better place for the christian than this world. 

On 1 Pfeter iv. 18, Mr. D; has given a perfect refutation 
of himself. He has proved with entire clearness that Pe- 
ter was speaking of a particular judgment, while the point 
at issue is a general judgment. This has saved us the 
time of evincing that fact. 

He quoted Heb. ii. 1 — 3, " How shall we escape 

if we neglect so great salvation ?" &c. The Apostle is 
here contrasting their condition under the Christian dis- 
pensation with the condition of those under the Jewish dis> 



! 0N UNI VERSA LISM. 249 

nsation. And says, if those under the Jewish dispensa- 
tion, who had much fewer privileges than we have, were 
sorely punished for every act of disobedience, how con 
we, who have so many privileges, escape the retributions 
of eternity, if we neglect so great salvation — the whole 
system of Christianity ? 

He says, Hob. ix. 27, " And as it is appointed unto men 
once to die ; and after this the judgment," has no reference 
to the future world, and the death spoken of does not mean 
the literal death of the body. But w r e have the gentle- 
man's distinguished author, Dr. Clarke, to sustain our 
views on this. A word in reference to Mr. D.'s interpre- 
tation. Two or three assumptions give it all the plausi- 
bility it has ; and unfortunately for him, these are made 
in the face of stubborn facts to the contrary, and they 
contradict the very letter of the text. First, he says the 
high priest under the Jewish law, figuratively died for the 
sins of the people. We deny that in any place in the 
Scriptures, it is intimated that the high priest was to die, 
literally, figuratively, spiritually, or in any other senses 
for the people. The gentleman's assumption is false, and 
unfounded on the word of God, from centre to circumfer- 
ence. It was the business of the high priest to enter the 
sanctuary once a year, not to die figuratively, but to sac- 
rifice a victim, an animal, which literally died, typify- 
ing the death of Jesus Christ. 

But did this take place but once in the lifetime of the 
high priest? We are told it took place annually* Now 
the text says, " as it is appointed unto men once to die," — 
once only, in the ease of men. But it was the business of 
the high priest to offer his victim once every year. This 
text then, we maintain, gives literal matters of fact; for 
we know it is appointed unto men once, and only once, 
to die. 

The point between us is, whether the literal judgment of 
men takes place in this world or in the future world. To 
have this point settled with a clearness beyond doubt, we 
give you some clear cases. 

We quote first from Job iv. 7, 9, where the issue is fair- 
ly joined between Job and his friends. Job's friends main- 

21* 



lad that God punished every act of wickedness in I 
world* and that tho righteous were rewarded in this world. 
This position they kept through the whole discussion. Job 
contended with his friends on this point. The reading oi 
"/;il passages will make this question as clear as tho 
sun, and settle it beyond a doubt. Eliphaz speaks in this 

sage, u Remember I pray thee, whoever perished being 
innocent' or where were the righteous cut ofT? Even i\* 
1 have seen, thoy that plow iniquity, and sow wickedness, 
reap the same, By the blast of God thoy perish and by 
the breath of his nostrils are they consumed." This is 
the vory position my respondent maintains- -the very doc- 
trine he insists on. 

1 read the 20th and 'J 1st verses of the same eha pter- 
in y are destroyed from morning to evening: they per- 
\ei\ without any regarding it. Doth not their i 
eelleney which is in them go away? they die even with* 
out wisdom." lie is here speaking oi' the wicked* and 
speaks of the manner they are dealt with, to prove that 
God recompenses men in this world according to their 
works. The same position is taken by another of Job's 
friends in the 8th chap. 1 — (> verses: " Then answered 

dad the Simile, and said, how long wilt thou speak th 
things; and how long shall the words of thy mouth be 
like a strong wind? Doth God pervert judgment:' or doth 
almighty pervert justice? If thy children have sin- 
him, and he have oast them away for their 
transgression ; If thou wouldst seek unto God betimes, and 
make thy supplication to the Almig'my; if then wort pi 
and upright: surely now he would awake for thee, and 
the habitation of thy right. 

; the doctrine that the work! is the plaeo lor (he re- 
trie righteous and the wicked, Bildad Ik 
charges Job With suffering for his wickedness. 

Again: Job xi. 1 — 6, "Then answered Zophar the 
Naamathite, and said, should not the multitude of words 
lould a man full of talk bo justified! 
should thy lies make men hold their peace? and when thou 
meekest, shall no man make thee ashamed? for thou has 
*uid, my doctrine is pure, and 1 am clean in thine eyes. But 



ON UNIVERSALIS!*. 251 

. oh that God would speak, and open his lips against th 
and that he would shew thee the secrets of wisdom, that 
y are double to that which is I Know, therefore, that 
i exacteih of thee iess than thine iniquity h." 

This passage clearly sets forth the doctrine maintained by 
my respondent, to wit: that God judges and fully recom- 
penses every man on the earth — the righteous are made 
happy, and the wicked punished in this state of being, in- 
stead of being held responsible to a. future judgment. But 
hear what Job says, Job vi. 1 — 4. "But Job answered and 
said, oh that my grief were thoroughly weighed, and my 
calamities laid in a balance together! lor now it would bo 
heavier then the sand of the sea; therefore my words are 
swallowed up. For the arrows of the Almighty are with- 
in me, the poison whereof drinketh up my spirit : the tor- 
I do set themselves in array against me." 
irk here, ih*it Job so far from maintaining that the righ- 
ts are fully rewarded in this world, speaks as if over- 
whelmed with grief for his unparalleled calamities. 
. 22 — 25. " This one thing, therefore 1 said it, 
ile destroyeth the perfect and the wicked. If the scourge 
slay suddenly, he will laugh at the trial of the innocent. 
The earth is given into the hand of the wicked : he eov- 
ereth the faces of the judges thereof; if not, where and 
who is he? Now my days are swifter than a post: they 
away, they see no good." Job xii. 1 — 6. "And Job 
ed and said, no doubt but ye are the people, and 
lom shall die wiiB you, But I have understanding as 
well as you: I am not inferior to you : yea, who knoweth 
not such things as these? I am as one mocked of his neigh- 
bor, who calielh upon God, and he answereth him : the 
just upright man is laughed to scorn. He that is ready 
to sKp with his feet is as a lamp despised in the thought of 
him that is at ease. The tabernacles of robbers prosper, 
and they that provoke God are secure; into whose hand 
God bringeth abundantly." Mark the issue is joined as 
clear as the sun, on the same ground my friend occupies 
against me. 

Again: Job xvi. 11 — 15. "God hath delivered me to 
the ungodlv, and turned me over into the hands of the 



252 A DISCUSSION 

wicked. I was at ease, but he hath broken me assunder, 
he hath also taken me by my neck, and shaken me to pie- 
ces, arid set me up for his mark. His archers compass me 
round about ; he cleaveth my reins asunder, and doth not 
spare; he poureth out my gall upon the ground. He 
breaketh me with breach upon breach ; he runneth upon 
me like a giant, I have sewed sackcloth upon my skin, 
and defiled my horn in the dust." Here Job, notwith- 
standing his integrity and righteousness, says that he is 
given over into the hands of the ungodly, and is most sore- 
ly afflicted . 

Here the doctrine maintainedby those three men who en- 
tered the arena against Job is, that this world is the state of 
final retribution; all the wicked are here punished accord- 
ing to their crimes, and the innocent and holy always es- 
cape punishment or afflictions and are fully rewarded in 
this life. But Job maintains that the wicked, so far from 
being fully punished in this world, are greatly prospered 
and every thing around them ministered to their happi- 
ness; while on the other hand the righteous are sometimes 
sorely oppressed and afflicted. 

The gentleman you know, here takes the ground that 
the present is the period of full and final retribution for 
the wicked and the righteous. This we deny and hold 
that it is a period of mixed retribution, and the final de- 
cision is left for the general judgment in the future world; 
And we think we can settle our position by authority, that 
will place it heyond controversy. Job i. 8. "And the Lord 
said unto Satan, hast thou considered my servant Job, that 
there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and upright 
man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?" Again, 
Job ii. 3. "And the Lord said unto Satan, hast thou consid- 
ered my servant Job, that there is none like him on the 
earth, a perfect and upright man, one that fearth God and 
escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, al- 
though thou movedst me against him, to destroy him with- 
out cause." Here the piety and uprightness o^ Job and 
his entire devotion to his creator, is attested by his Divine 
maker. 

To settle the point at issue between Job and his friends, 



ON UNIVEKSALISM. 253 

and likewise the same point between me and my worthy 
friend, I refer you to the authority of God himself for de- 
cision, as recorded in the 42d chapter of Job from the 
7th to the 10th verses inclusive. " And it was so, that af- 
ter the Lord had spoken these words unto Job, the Lord- 
said to Eliphaz the Temanite, my wrath is kindled against 
thee, and against thy two friends; for ye have not spoken 
of me the thing that is- right, as my servant Job hath. 
Therefore take unto you now seven bullocks and seven- 
rams, and go to my servant Job, and offer up for your- 
selves a burnt-offering; and my servant Job shall pray for 
you, for him will I accept; lest I deal with you after your 
folly, in that ye have not spoken of me the thing which is 
right, like my servant Job. So Eliphaz the Tamanite, 
and Bildad the Shuhite, andZophar the Naamathite, went 
and did according as the Lord commanded them : the Lord 
also- accepted Job. And the Lord turned the captivity of 
Job, when he prayed for his friends ; also the Lord gave 
Job twice as much as he had before." Here the Lord spe- 
cifically condemned what the friends of Job had said in re- 
gard to His character and administration. 

What had they said? Why that this was the period of 
final retribution — that the righteous and wicked are hare 
fully rewarded according to their works. God was angry 
with them for misrepresenting Him, — "ye have not spok- 
en of Me the thing that is right." 

Job contended that the present was not the time for fi- 
nal retribution, that the righteous and wicked are not re- 
warded here according to their deeds; and God testifies of 
Job that he had " said the things that were right," and ac- 
cepted of him and heard his prayer. 

Here then we see that Jehovah — if his decision is to be 
regarded in the premises — settles this question beyond the 
possibility of a doubt, that the final judgment, the final re- 
wards of the righteous, and the final punishment of the 
wicked are reserved for the future world. 

My time is up, but I will just add, that till my respon- 
dent meets this position fairly all he may say on this ques- 
tion will scarcely deserve aword of notice. 



254 A DISCUSSION 

[MR. DOOLITTLE'S eleventh reply.] 

Gentlemen Moderators mid the Audience. — I am as much 
at a loss what to do as in the former part of the day, when 
the gentleman gave us a speech, in which there was no- 
thing to meet. He has made a great effort to prove some- 
thing from the case of Joh; bat it proves just nothing at 
all, or proves just the contrary of what he wished to prove, 
it teaches that the wicked are punished in this world. 

I am at a loss for what purpose my friend brought this, 
and if he will be so good now as to inform us before we go 
further, it will help us. 

[Mr. Power replied at length: "Gentlemen Judges, you 
will recollect I had been adducing proof that the final judg- 
ment of men is yet future, and takes place, as I have pro- 
ved from the Book, after death. The gentleman takes 
exceptions to this, and said the final judgment takes place 
in this world. I brought up the case from Job, as a per- 
fect illustration of the question. In this case, the three 
friends of Job maintained that the wicked are fully pun- 
ished in this world for their wickedness, and the righteous 
fully rewarded in this world for their righteousness. — 
This they maintained through the discussion, and this is 
precisely the ground my worthy respondent occupies. — 
On the other hand, Job maintained that the wicked 
are not fully punished in this world, but frequently live 
in ease and prosperity; and that the righteous are fre- 
quently cast down, and lose their children and property, 
and health; and are subject to the greatest calamities in 
this world. 

Again : I referred to the decision of God on this point. 
He tells us his wrath was kindled against the friends of 
Job, because they had misrepresented God, and he appro- 
ved of Job, because he had spoken the truth. 

This is as clear as I can make it, and if my friend is so 
much in the fog that he cannot see the force of it, I know 
the congregation can see it."] 

Gentlemen, as for the fog, I see my way clear, and I am 



ON UNIVERSALIS*!. 255 

not bewildered at all. My chart and compass are not lost 
yet. I have not been in the fog since the discussion com- 
menced. But the vail is over our friend's mind, and the 
beam is in his eye. If he will cast out the beam he will 
see clearly, whether I am in the fog or not. 

But I thank the gentleman for his kindness in giving 
us the explanation, for I was in the dark to know what 
his object was in bringing up this case — but after some 
minutes he has explained it — and now it is not very clear. 
But if I understand him rightly, he made the quotation 
from the book of Job, to prove that the wicked are not 
punished in this world, and that the righteous are not re- 
warded here according to their works. 

If this is the right understanding of the matter, he has 
been laboring for some time to array Scripture against 
Scripture. Now, if he can make one passage teach one 
thing and another teach just the opposite, he will be in 
no better condition than he thinks I am in. We will all 
be involved together. If the Bible is at war with itself 
it will be destroyed. Our friend has been taking a course, 
not with a view to destroy your confidence in the Bible, 
but a course which will destroy all confidence in the word 
of God. Now general truths are laid down in the Bible. 
They are not true, merely because they are in the Bible, 
but because they are in accordance with the nature and re- 
lation of things, and the finger of infinite wisdom has writ- 
ten them on every page of the great volume of nature 
spread out before us, and the great truth, which wholly 
annihilates the position of our friend, and which is written 
every where in the volume of nature, and on almost every 
page of the Bible, and is in accordance with our reason is, 
that there is a God who judgeth in the earth; and that the 
violation of both physical and moral law, will be visited 
with a penalty, corresponding with such violation, and 
that the penalty will be visited on us immediately. This, 
all know to be the fact, with the violation of physical law, 
that the penalty immediately follows; and this law holds 
equally true in the moral world, as speedily and as cer- 
tainly as the thunder follows the lightning. So every vi- 
olation of moral law is followed by its full penalty. — 



256 



A BISCUSS10N 



lience, nature and revelation unite in declaring that the 
'"righteous shall be recompensed in the earth, much more 
the wicked and the sinner. And if the righteous scarcely 
foe saved, where shall the ungodly and sinner appear." If 
these passages both mean the same thing, as we have been 
informed, then both prove that the righteous shall be judg- 
ed and recompensed in the earth, and much more the un- 
righteous and the sinner. Now, are we to set aside all 
these principles and truths of nature and reason, which 
would remain for ever true, did not the Bible exist? 

It comports with man's experience, that every violation 
of natural and physical law will be visited with its due pe- 
nalty, and that its retribution is not far off in the future 
world. 

And, likewise, that as certain as effect and cause are 
united, so sure will those who violate the moral precepts, 
suffer the penalty of such violation. 

"There is no peace," saith my God, "to the wicked, 5 ' this 
would be eternally true, had the Almighty never uttered it. 
But how is it with the righteous? "He shall be like a tree 
planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his 
fruit is his season; his leaf also shall not wither, and what- 
soever he doeth shall prosper; the path of the just is as 
the shining light that shineth more and more unto the per- 
fect day. Wisdom's ways are ways of pleasantness, and 
all her paths are peace." 

"The work of righteousness is peace, and the effect of 
righteousness, quietness and assurance for ever." Now, the 
truth of these declarations is coroborated by nature and 
reason, and the experience of the whole world. 

As farther proof of the great principle that the right* 
eous and the wicked are recompensed in the earth, accord- 
ing to their works, see Prov. xii. 12, 13. "The wicked 
desireth the net of evil men; but the root of the righteous 
yieldeth fruit. The wicked is snared by the transgres- 
sion of his lips: but the just shall come out of trouble." — 

Again: Jer. ix. 23, 24. "Thus saith the Lord, let not 
the wiseman glory in his wisdom, neither let the mighty 
man glory in his might, let not the rich man glory in 
his riches: but let him that glorieth glory in this, that he 



ON UNIVERSALISM. 257 

understandeth and knoweth me, that I am the Lord vvhieh 
exercise loving kindness, judgment, and righteousness, in 
the earth: for in these things I delight, saith the Lord." 
Here, you see, is another testimony explicit that the judg- 
ment is in tlie earth and not in the future world, as our 
friend would have you believe. But I will now call your 
attention to the words of Solomon, who was as wise and 
as pious as Job, In Prov. xi. 30, 3 I, he tells us — -'-The 
fruit of the righteous is atree of life; and he that winneth 
souls is wise. Behold, the wise shall be recompensed in 
the earth: much more the wicked and the sinner." And 
in the next chapter you may read, if you choose, from the 
32th verse to the end of the chapter, for it all teaches the 
same doctrine; but I will quote only the last verse- "In 
the way of righteousness is life: and in the pathway there- 
of there is no death." And this harmonizes with the dec- 
laration — "The work of righteousness shall be peace, and 
the effects of righteousness, quietness and assurance for 
ever." The wise man tells us that life (everlasting life, 
I our Savior says.) is the way of righteousness — the right- 
eous reap peace and joy — this is always his fruit. On the 
other hand, death is in the way of the wicked, "The way 
of the transgressor is hard." "The wicked are like the 
troubled sea, when it cannot rest, whose waters cast up 
mire and dirt. There is no peace, saith my God, to the 
wicked." 

I might quote many other passages in support of my 
position, but I think these are sufficient. However, I will 
quote some more passages to show you that the place 
where God metes out punishments and rewards, is in this 
world. First — Rom. v. 18. "Therefore, as by the of- 
fence of one, judgment came upon all men to condemna- 
tion; 'even so by the righteousness of one, the free gift 
came upon all men unto justification of life." Now, here 
is a universal judgment for sin of all men; and it is rep- 
resented as having already come in the past. Again: 
John ix.39. "And Jesus said, for judgment I am come in- 
to this world, &c." Now, Christ does not say he has 
-come to this world for judgment in the future world, but 

22 



258 A DISCUSSION 

for judgment here; this was the object of his mission — 
what he came for. 

I want you, my friends, to understand, that my friend 
Power is the one in the fog instead of myself; and, as an 
evidence of this fact, I wish to remind you that he has 
once or twice taken a position and abandoned it. You 
will recollect that I put ihe question to him in the former 
part of the day, whether he believed the present world 
was a place of retribution — that God metes out rewards 
and punishments here to men; and he answered, unquali- 
fiedly, that he did not. Afterwards, he abandoned his po- 
sition in part, and said he did believe that, partially, this 
is a world of retribution — that is, that some nations and 
individuals, because of their great crimes and wickedness, 
were partially punished in this world, but not fully. — 
Now, first, his position, unqualifiedly, was, this world is 
not a state of retribution. His next position is, this world 
is a state of retribution, but not fully so. In this position 
he now stands before you. I will admit that this is not 
giving up the main position entirely, but it is conceding, 
in part, what I had proved — that this world is the place 
where God metes out rewards and punishments. On this 
text — "The righteous shall be recompensed in the earth" 
— he admits that this is a recompense in part, but not 
in full. 

"Now, to bring it to a point," he says, "either the right- 
eous are wholly recompensed for their works in this world, 
or they are not. If they are not fully recompensed in 
this world, then it follows, that they are to be recompen- 
sed for their works, in the future world. But if they are 
fully recompensed in this world, then, this is the only 
Heaven there is for the righteous." 

But this does not follow; it remains to be proved. I say 
this text says, and the Bible maintains, that the righteous 
shall be fully recompensed in this world. And if the gen- 
tleman will prove that the righteous are to be recompen- 
sed in the future world for deeds performed in this world, 
I will then yield my position. Now, as to the righteous 
in the future world, all they receive there is the gift of 
God, not of works. It is not bestowed as a reward for 



ON UNIVERSALIS?*. 



259 



their good deeds in this world. The child of God receives 
Heaven, and all the glories of it, as a free gift from God, 
not on the score of merit. Heaven, and its happiness, are 
not bestowed upon the righteous as a recompense. 

And I challenge my friend to produce a solitary passage 
from the word of God, that proves that the righteous are 
to be recompensed in the future world, for their good 
works in this life. 

I have now noticed all my friend's arguments, and I re- 
mark, if he brings no more stronger ones than he has 
done, we shall not have much to do. 

As I have some time, now, I will define what I mean by 
the devil. You recollect I quoted 1st John iii. 8. and Heb. 
ji. 14; which speaks of the destruction of the devil and his 
works. 

Now, I simply say, that by the devil, here spoken of, I 
understand — "the spirit that worketh in the children of 
j disobedience" — the adversary of souls, the source or foun- 
tain of moral corruption and sin; not a created, personal 
being, that was once an angel of light in Heaven, and was 
cast down to hell, and is now going about the earth tempt- 
ing men to sin, every where, and leading them from the 
path of duty. 

Our friend may talk as much as he pleases about a per- 
sonal devil; he may describe him, with a body as large as 
ten thousand mammoths, and eyes like two blazing com- 
ets, and a tail that will draw after him a third part of the 
stars of heaven, and claim for him all the art, and cun- 
ning, and deceit, in the world; but I cannot believe in any 
such monster. 

But what is to become of this devil, whatever he is?— 
The passages quoted, prove that he will be destroyed; 
likewise, that all his works will be destroyed. Now, some 
one has said that the devil is the Almighty's sheriff; and 
if the sheriff is destroyed, will not the prisoners escape? 
And if the devil is the keeper of the prison of hell, can any 
be kept in endless misery, if the devil and all hi* works 
are destroyed? The devil shall be destroyed. And do 
not be frightened, friends; for nothing good will be des- 
troyed, but only evil, for it is the devil that harms men. 



266 A DISCUSSION 

Now you all come here to get light. And if I can prove 
to you from the Scriptures, that the devil will be destroy- 
ed with all his works, and that joy and peace will pervade 
every breast of man, and that all will get to heaven, and 
be free from all evil and sorrow, and enjoy the favor of 
God for ever and ever, this will be a source of great re- 
joicing to us-all. We could all rejoice in such a hope, ft 
is a far better hope than our friend Power has. He is re- 
joicing, no doubt, in the thought that some will get home 
to heaven, where they will be eternally happy. But if 
he could see that all would be saved at last, he would have 
far greater joy. Now, his joy is limited. Then his joy 
would be unspeakable and full of glory. [Time expired. 

[mr. power's. twelfth spkec H.] ; ; 

Gentlemen Judges, — 1 have seen serious and grave sub- 
jects made the occasion of levity before. But in this I have 
bo participation. I am transacting business for eternity. 
And if my position cannot be sustained without exciting 
the levity of a congregation, it must fail. My positions 
address themselves to the intelligence of the community — 
and consequently I cannot follow the gentleman in his vvit- 
icisms. 

In regard to his definition of the devil, we leave it till he 
will come out and tell us whether there is more than one 
devil* or whether he has a personal identity, or is only a. 
corrupt nature in every man. I know that he felt his po- 
sition was suffering here, or he would not have made the 
remarks he did. [Mr. Doolittle arose and said — " I will 
relieve the gentleman in a moment. I do not believe in 
any devil or devils aside from man in this world — some- 
thing connected with men and women in this world."] — 
Then 1 understand him to mean, that the devil is some 
propensity of man. [Mr. D. — "It is the spirit or princi- 
ple of evil personified."] Has every individual of the hu- 
man family this principle of evil in him ? [Mr. D. — "Ev- 
ery one who is wicked."] Well, every one is wicked till 
he is changed ; then till he is changed each individual has 
tbfculev.il in him* [Mr. D, said, « Yes,. that is it."]. Wcllv 



ON tJNIVERSALISM. 261 

gentlemen, you will recollect that the devil is the spirit or 
principle of evil personified. And that every individual 
that is wicked has such a devil in him. And every person 
that is tempted by the devil is tempted by this principle of 
evil in him. [Mr. D. responded, " Yes."] We have on- 
ly to ask him to .settle this in regard to the Savior on the 
mount. What kind of a principle of evil tempted Christ 
on the mount ? Whether this principle had " wings or 
legs, or a body as large as a mountain, or what kind of a 
principle or creature" it was ? Again, what principle of 
evil personified was it that entered into the swine, that 
caused " them to run violently down a steep place into the 
lake and were choked" ? When he will settle these, we 
will give him other difficulties on this subject. 

The gentleman charged me with changing my position. 
This we deny, lie asked if I believed this world was a 
state of retribution, and if sinners were punished in this 
world for their sins ? Understanding him to mean in the 
highest sense of retribution, I answered in the nega- 
tive. He then gave his version of my answer, in which 
he misrepresented it. In my next speech I explained my 
meaning, which need not be repeated here. The audience 
understand it, if Mr, D. will not. We wonder much that 
the gentleman will continue to do himself such great dis- 
credit, by misrepresenting his opponent's views after he 
has b?en corrected so repeatedly. In this, however, he 
gives proof that he is sorely pressed by my true positions. 

He says he will 4i yield his position " if I will adduce "a. 
solitary passage" to prove that the righteous are recom- 
pensed, or rewarded, in the future world, for deeds per- 
formed in this. Before adducing this proof, we remind 
you of our true position on this subject, as repeatedly ex- 
plained during this discussion — that is, that God requires 
of man, not works of merit, as a ground on which he can 
claim as a matter of justice a reward, but, works of obedi- 
ence, as a condition on which God can bestow the rewards 
of Grace here, and of Glory in heaven. 

Hence, when God rewards the righteous in heaven for 
their piety on earth, it is not because they have merited it 
by their works, but they have performed the works of obe- 

*22 



262 A DISCUSSION 

dience as a condition on which God can bestow it as 
free gift of grace. The proof — Matt. v. 11, 12. "Bless- 
ed are ye when men shall revile you, and persecute you, 
and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for 
my sake. Rejoice, and be exceeding glad : for great is 
your reward in heaven : for so persecuted they the proph- 
ets which were before you." Here Christ is explicit, and 
emphatic, in promising the righteous " a great reward in 
heaven." On the ground of merit* No. Uncondition- 
ally 1 No. On what ground then ? Why, on the ground 
of patient persevering obedience to Christ, continued in 
till death, as the condition of receiving the rewards of 
Grace on earth and Glory in heaven. And without which 
obedience there is no promise of salvation in time or in 
eternity. Will the gentleman meet this proof, or yield his 
position ? 

He attempted to illustrate the moral condition of man 
by physical law. He says if a man violates physical law 
the penalty immediately follows. For instance, if he puts 
his hand into the fire it will be burnt. So it will be, he 
says, in morals. If he violates the moral law the penalty 
will as surely and as speedily follow. Now taking the il- 
lustration— if an individual puts his hand into the fire, and 
lets it remain there, as men do in sinning against God, he 
experiences pain. But is this all? No; he loses his hand 
for life. So lie puts out his eyes, and experiences pain at 
the time. But this is not all. He is blind for life. And 
so it is with sin. When a man sins, unless " his conscience 
is seared as with a hot iron," he is convicted and feels 
guilt at the time on account of it. But so far from this be- 
ing the final result, it folLpws him into eternity, unless he 
reforms and believes, and there settles his destiny forever. 

Mr. D- attempted to excite your alarm, in reference to 
our quotations from Job, that it arrayed one part of the 
Bible against another part, and therefore invalidated the 
whole. But who does net know that the Bible, in its his- 
torical parts, records facts which are condemned by the 
Bible in other parts ? 

The Bible records the crucifixion of Christ. But does 
that part of the Bible advocate sin because it records such 



ON UNIVERSALIS^. 26$ 

a fact ? It records the hypocrisy of the Pharisees — but 
does this give a sanction to hypocrisy ? No, truly. So in 
the case before us ; the Bible records the fact thut' the op- 
posers of Job were in serious and alarming errors, and 
God condemns them for their errors. This is recorded, 
not to make the Bible contradict itself, but to show God's 
wrath against all such evil and erroneous doctrines, and 
prisrepreserrtations of his character and government. 

Again: to prove that the judgment is in this world, he 
quoted Rom. v. 18. " Therefore, as by the offence of one 
judgment came upon all men to condemnation, " &c. Well, 
if that is the final judgment, then saints and sinners are all 
condemned together, throughout all generations, for '« the 
judgment came upon all to condemnation ," and there is no 
salvation for any one. Truly* the gentleman is in great 
straights 

But instead of meeting my argument from Job, he has 
not even noticed it. But it shall be kept before him. And 
I am satisfied this audience will not require me to notice 
any other argument of his in reference to a judgment in 
this world, till he meets this. And also, till he meets the 
difficulty raise] against his application ofProv. xi.31, and 
1 Pet. iv. 18. Till he meets these arguments we shall 
not feel bound to pay any attention to anything more that 
he may bring on this head. 

As to the idea of a progressive judgment, it is an absur- 
dity. First, on the ground that Jesus Christ is a mediator 
between God and man. "For," says Paul, "there is one God 
and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Je- 
sus." 1 Tim. ii. 5. Again, 1 Jno. ii. 1. "And if any man 
sin we have an advocate with ihe Father, Jesus Christ the 
righteous." We maintain that it is an absurdity which 
the Bible never could be the author of— that Christ can be 
the advocate with the Father on the throne, and at the 
very same time sit himself as a judge in the final judg- 
ment of our race. Gentlemen, conld you be sitting there 
as judges in the case of an offender, and at the same time 
be here pleading his cause as advocates? This is an absur- 
dity the Book of God never authorised or supported. . 

Again: it is an utter impossibility on the gentleman's 



164 A DISCUSSION 

scheme. His system maintains that Jesus Christ, in the 
utmost dignity of his character and nature, is a finite and 
created being. We have this from Mr. Baliou, the apos- 
tle of the system. 

It is absolutely impossible for a finite being to be in 
more than one place at the same time. I care not if it be 
Gabriel, or how great his capacities may he, if he is a 
created being, he is absolutely devoid of the attribute of 
Omnipresence. And if Christ is a created being, as his 
system teaches, he cannot be present now, judging every 
one, and at ihe same time be on the ihroneas mediator. If 
the doctrine of a progressive judgment be true, he is here, 
he is in London, in Paris, he is in Asia, and in Africa, and 
he is in every family on earth, as a judge, at the same mo- 
ment of time. And yet he is a finite being literally in 
heaven ! 

This is just as impossible as for a worm that crawls in 
our path, to speak a universe into being. But the gentle- 
man has to hold all these absurdities, if he holds to a pro- 
gressive judgment. 

He said he had examined all my proof texts. This is a 
mistake ; but I attributed his want of memory to his great 
confusion and embarrassment; and will specify a text for 
him to notice. Acts i. 11. This shows that the coming 
of Christ shall be visible, when he comes in the glory of 
his Father and the ho!y angels with him, to judge the 
world. 

Christ has never yet appeared thus visibly to the world 
to judge it. Consequently it is yet future. To show that 
the judgment has not taken place, and that it is yet future, 
see Rev. xx. 11. " And I saw a great white throne, and 
him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heav- 
en fled away ; and there was found no place for them."- 
And 2 Pet. iii. 5-— 13. "For this they willingly are ig- 
norant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of 
old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the 
water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflow- 
ed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth 
which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reser- I 
ved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of 



ON UNIVERSALIS^. 2G5 

ungodly men. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one 
thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, 
and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack 
concerning his promise, as some men count slackness ; but 
is long-suffering to us-ward, not willing that any should 
perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the 
day of the Lord shall come as a thief in the night; in the 
which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and 
the elements shall melt with fervent heat, and the earth 
also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 
Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what 
manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conver- 
sation and godliness, looking for and hastening unto the 
coming of the day of God. wherein the heavens being on 
fire, shall be dissolved,. = and the elements shall melt with 
fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, 
look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth 
righteousness." 

We have the authority of Dr. Clarke on these texts. I 
shall not quote his language. You can read' for your- 
selves. He holds that these texts should be understood 
literally. The illustration that Peter uses is such as to 
require the text to be understood literally. As the old 
world was literally destroyed, so far as the element of 
water could destroy W, so the present world will literally 
be destroyed by fire, 

Mr. D. may quote the prophets, to show that similar 
| language is used figuratively. But if he does, it will be 
' seen that the nature of the subjects adduced from prophe- 
cy, is such as to require the language to be understood fig- 
! nratively. But in this case it is perfectly philosophical to 
I understand the language literally. 

You will bear in mind that the gentleman has admitted 
' that the Bible teaches the doctrine of a universal judgment, 
; and we have proved that the Bible makes this future. — 
' And we have adduced facts connected' with this judgment, 
; that have never occurred in this world, and consequently 
< must be future. For example, the coming of Christ in the 
1 manner discribed, and the passing away of the heavens 
and- the earth, and the melting of the elements by fire.- — 



266 A DISCUSSION 

Our next item will be to show that God has connected the 
ressurrection of the dead, both good and bad, with the lit- 
eral coming of Jesus Christ, and the literal burning up of 
the material world. [Ti?ne expired. 

[mr. doolittle's twelfth reply ] 

My Friends.— I began to think, just now, that our friend 
was going to throw the laboring oars upon my hand en- 
tirely. He said that it devolved on me to show, from the 
passages in Peter and in Prov. whether the righteous were 
fully recompensed in this world or not. 1 did not suppose 
it devolved an me to prove both sides of the question. [ 
had supposed it devolved on my friend to prove the affir- 
mative. I thought he was to show that the righteous were 
not fully recompensed in the earth. But it appears that 
he has a hopeless task, and now he wants to throw the 
labor of this upon my shoulder. But 1 think I shall not 
go over to do this work for him. 1 know my business: it 
is to prove that the righteous are rewarded, and the wick- 
ed punished, in this world. Now I wish you to bear in 
mind, what our friend has been laboring all day to prove. 
He has not been trying to prove that any will be endless- 
ly punished; but that they will be punished some in a fu- 
ture world; ihat the judgment will extend into the future 
world. But whether rewards of the righteous will be 
endless, or the punishment of the wicked eternal, he has 
said nothing about. And this is the real point in debate. 
So far from arriving to the point yet, he has not settled 
the preliminaries to it. What proof has he brought that 
there will be a judgmennt in the future world? 

I have not seen a single particle of proof yet. He has 
said that our Savior has told us, great will be your reward 
in heaven. But I read, "Great is your reward in heaven. " 
Your reward is now in the kingdom great; you are now 
sitting down herewith Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, in the 
kindom of heaven, enjoying your reward. Christ had 
told them if they would seek first the kingdom of heav- 
en, that they should have joy and peace. All things they 
wanted should be added unto them. This they had done, 



ON UNIVERSALIS!*!. 267 

and now Christ could say, great is your reward in heav- 
en — you are now enjoying your rewards. There is not 
the least reference to the future state — a state of immor- 
tality. And Christ says to the wicked and sinners a- 
round him — to those great sinners and hypocrites, the 
Pharisees "ye have your reward. 1 ' You now have your 
reward. Christ does not say they will have it in the fu- 
ture world, but tells them they have it now in this world. 

Now with respect to this case of Job, I want to help 
the gentleman out of the fog in regard to this matter, that 
he may have no longer any excuse to remain where he is, 
but go on to some other proof. The learned who have 
investigated this matter most thoroughly, r do not agree 
when or by whom, the book of Job was written. Some 
tell us it is a literal matter of fact, others an allegory. 
They have never been able to decide these questions. We 
believe, however, that it contains for us some important 
instruction. And be it an allegory or real history, it is 
intended no doubt to illustrate the dealings of God with 
his creatures on earth. In regard to the opinions of Job 
and his friends — which were correct? In the end God de- 
cides in favor of Job. But what ground did Job's friends 
take? Why that Job was one of the greatest of sinners, 
because he was so greatly afflicted. This, Job, ail along, 
denies, and maintains his integrity and righteousness. — 
"I put on rigeteousness and it clothed me— my judg- 
ment was as a robe and a diadem — I was eyes to the blind, 
and feet was 1 to the lame — I was a father to the poor, 
and the cause which I knew not I searched out." 

This, Job continually maintained, notwithstanding his 
fr'ends were all the time pressing him to come out and 
own that he was a great sinner and an arrant hypocrite. 
Now, who was right in the end? Why, God decides in 
favor of Job. It appears that these afflictions did not be- 
fall him in the providence of God, because Job was a 
wicked man, but as a trial of his faith and patience, for 
the purpose of doing him good, and in view of all his integ- 
rity, and the manner in which he endured these afflctions,. 
his faithfulness was acknowledged and approved on the 
part of God, and his friends were condemned for judging 



"208 A DISCUSSION 

him as they did, and not saying the thing that was fright. 
Now, on this point, was Job recompensed in this world 
or was he not? Why the truth is, as the history informs 
us, God blessed Job, and his last days were more prosper- 
ous and happy than the former part of his life. He was 
rewarded of God, according to his righteusness in this 
world. 

Now I have disposed of this matter with respect to Job. 
As farther proof of the fact, that this is a world of retri- 
bution, T quote from Psa. xcvi. 1G — 13. "Say among the 
heathen, that the Lord reigneth : the world also shall be 
established that it shall not be moved: he shall judge the 
people righteously. Let the heavens rejoice, and let the 
earth be glad; let the sea roar, and the fullness thereof. — 
Let the field be joyful, and all that is therein: then shall all 
the trees of the wood rejoice before the Lord: for he 
cometh, for he cometh to judge the earth: he shall judge the 
world with righteousness, and the people with his truth. w 
Now, in view of God's moral government being set up and 
established in the earth ; and in view of the commencement 
of the reign or day of judgment, the Psalmist calls upon all 
animate nature to rejoice before the Lord, for he cometh. 
Cometh for what? To judge the earth. When? In an im- 
mortal state of existence? No, here in this world. Again, 
Psa. xcviii. 7—- 9. "Let the sea roar, and the fullness 
thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein. Let the 
floods clap their hands: let the hills be joyful together be- 
fore the Lord: for he cometh to judge the earth: with 
righteousness shall he judge the world, and the people 
with equity." Now in view of this judgment, we are cal- 
led upon to rejoice, all heaven and earth, and all the ani- 
mate creation are called upon to rejoice, because the re- 
sult of the judgment shall be glorious. But our friend 
Power will try to make out that the result of the judgment 
will be such as to clothe the heavens in blackness, and the 
earth in gloom, and drive its inhabitants to despair. Now 
if the Psalmist had viewed such to be the results of the 
judgment, would he have called upon all nature to rejoice 
on account of it? No, indeed, he would not. Remember 
his views of the judgment, and of its results, was very dif- 
ferent from the opinion our friend has of it. 



ON UNIVERSALIS!*. ♦ 269 

Now, to the gentleman's proof text. I am glad he has 
.given one proof text. He tells us the coming of Christ to 
judge the world will be visible — lhat beistocome in 
like manner as he ascended into heaven. But my friends 
I have al ready settled this matter. I have shown you that 
the coming of Christ to judge the world took place during 
the lifetime of some of those to whom he was talking on 
earth. "For the Son of man shall come in the glory of 
' his father with his angels, and then he shall reward every 
man according to his works. Verily I say unto you, there 
be feoine standing here which shall not taste of death, till 
they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom." Our 
friend quotes Peter, and I want you to pay particular at- 
tention to this testimony. 2 Peter iii. 7 — 13. ''But the 
heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word 
are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of 
I judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, be not ig- 
' norant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as 
a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The 
I Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men 
1 count slackness; but is long suffering to us ward, not wil- 
| ling that any should perish, but that all should come to re- 
1 pentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief 
\ in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away 
i with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fer- 
vent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein 
| shall be burned up. Seeing then that these things shall 
! be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all 
< holy conversation and godliness. Looking for and hast- 
1 ening unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the 
• heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements 
shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, accord- 
I ing to his promise, look (or new heavens and a new 
f earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness." 

Now my friends, I would remark that some of the most 
I -eminent commentators of the Bible are with me in under- 
i standing this passage. [Mr. Power requested him to name 
I them.] I could mention several, but as I have not the au- 
thorities with me, I choose not to mention them, without 
being certain. But whatever may be the opinion of oth- 

23 



270 A DISCUSSION 

ers, I give it as my opinion, and I think the evidence is 
clear that theearth here referred to, is not the literal earth*. 
It is to be understood in a figurative and moral sense, hav- 
ing reference to the removal of the Jewish dispensation, 
preparatory to the establisment of the New or Gospel dis- 
pensation. The same event is referred to in Heb. xii. 26— 
28. "Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath 
promised, saying, yet once more I shake not the earth on- 
ly, but also heaven. And this word, yet once more, sig- 
nified the removing those things that are shaken, as of 
things that are made, that those things which cannot be 
shaken may remain. Wherefore we receiving a kingdom 
which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we 
may serve God acceptably, with reverence and godly 
fear." This passage I give to illustrate the quotation of 
our friend from Peter to show it is to be understood in a 
figurative sense, and not literal — that it has reference to 
the abolishment of the legal dispensation, and establish- 
ment of the Gospel dispensation. This voice of God 
shook the Jewish dispensation and made it tremble and 
give way for the Gospel dispensation to be established. 
This is what is meant by the first heavensand earth pass- 
ing away. The event which should close up ihe legal 
dispensation. And the result of this closing up of the 
legal dispensation, should be a day of judgment and a day 
of perdition to ungodly men. The removal of things that 
are shaken. At the destruction of Jerusalem, it was a 
day of most awful judgment. The Jewish nation was ut- 
terly broken and removed. At this time the legal dis- 
pensation was fully destroyed— the finishing stroke was 
given to it. And then the Gospel dispensation was fully 
established. It was commenced before but not fully es- 
tablished. All the prophecies for this were fulfilled, and 
the prediction of Jesus Christ concerning the same events 
were all fiulfilled. Multitudes knew the Savior had 
foretold the destruction of Jerusalem. And those who be- 
fore had believed in him, would now have their faith great- 
ly strengthened and confirmed. But it was a day of aw- 
ful judgment to the ungodly and unbelieving Jews. They 
"were silted among all nations, as corn is sifted in a sieve." 



ON UNI VERSA LI3M. 271 

And they have been a proverb and a by word among all 

nations to the present day. 

Thus we have taken hold of this text, and explained its 
. meaning, if our friend wishes to build upon it longer, let 

him do it. 

As my time is up, I would simply observe that I have 

nothing to say in regard to the time my friend wants to 

occupy to prove his positions, I stand pledged to follow 
•j him 'as long as he wishes to lead. But my friends if you 
\i continue to'assemble here till my friend proves his point, 

you wilt have to assemble all the days of your lives, and 
i be disappointed at last, 
j Congregation adjourned. 



Monday, Aug. 5—9 o'clock, A. M. 



[mr. power's thirteenth speech.] 

Gentlemen Judges and the Audience. — We come before 
i you on this very pleasant morning to resume our highly 
<$ responsible labors, of detecting and exposing dangerous 
! errors, and elucidating and exhibiting for your faith and 
ij practice, the holy truths of God's revealed word. And 
{ we here remark, lest we should omit it subsequently, that 
\ we have been much gratified, from the commencement of 
{ this discussion, with the orderly, serious and christian de- 
ij portment of the audience in attendance. Very little feel- 
ing of levity has been evinced. Though f cannot say there 
has been no effort made to excite feelings of this kind. I 
know the congregation do not sympathise with such things, 
and we hope the same seriousness will be preserved during 
the few hours that the discussion may yet continue, f 
have endeavored to make it a solemn matter, and will con- 
tinue to do so. 

A few remarks now on some items of my friend's last 
6peech. 



212 A DISCUSSION 

First, respecting his animadversions on Matth. v, where* 
the Savior instructs his disciples, " ifthey are persecuted, 
driven from city to city, brought before civil authorities 
scourged and imprisoned, insulted and abused, and called* 
to suffer every thing that a wicked world could inflict up* 
on them, that they were to rejoice and be exceeding glad, 
for great is their reward in heaven. " The gentleman 
declared, in direct contradiction of this plain declaration 
of Christ, that heaven means this world, this state of be- 

And again: the passage 1 have cited in another place in 
this discourse, where the Savior says to the same charac- 
ters, in reference to the same circumstances—" Lay not 
up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and 
rust doth corrupt, and where theives break through and 
steal : but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, 
where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where 
thieves do not break through nor steal." Here the Re- 
deemer contrasts earth as a place of suffering, and heaven 
as a place of rewards, as clear as demonstration itself. — 
And such are the inexplicable difficulties the gentleman's 
system crowds him into, that he cannot get out of them 
but by the direct and explicit contradiction of what the 
Redeemer says. While Jesus says to the persecuted and 
afflicted christian, who is greatly distressed here, "Re- 
joice and be exceeding glad, for great is your reward in 
heaven," the gentleman corrects the Savior, and says, "no, 
not in heaven, for all your reward is in this earth." The 
Savior says, in earth is tribulation ; all things are passing 
away; nothing is safe here. Lay not up for yourselves 
treasures on earth, for they will be lost; but lay them up 
in heaven, for there they will be safe. But Mr. D. says 
not so, Christ is in error, you cannot lay up your treasure 
in heaven; you have all your reward in this life; you 
have all your treasures here on earth. 

The next item is Mr. D.'s notice of the book of Job. He 
made some remarks, tending to excite suspicion in regard 
to the authenticity of this part of the Scriptures. The 
system drives its advocates virtually to reject portions of 
the Bible, and this is one reason why we brought him to 



3tt UNIVERSALIS^!. 273 

j point— whether the righteous are fully rewarded here 
or not. He maintains that they are. So did the oppos- 
ers of Job. But Job contended that the wicked are not 
punished to the full extent in this life ; that they often live 
in great prosperity ; while the devoted and pious child 
of God, so acknowledged by the Almighty himself, under 
God's mysterious but wise government in this world, is of- 
ten subject to the greatest calamities. God's word tells us 
that some of those who had arrived in heaven, came out 
of great tribulation. 

Again: 1 called the attention of my respondent to the 
decision of God, that He was angry with the friends of .lob 
because they had not spoken the thing that was right, as 
Job had done. He sanctions Job's position as clearly as 
language can make it. And having apprised the gentle- 
man, that till he meets this fairly, 1 would pay but little 
attention to other points he might raise, he labored some 
time on the case of Job; and what was the conclusion he 
came to ? It could not have escaped the attention of the 
congregation. But I will stir up your pure minds by way 
of remembrance on it. He told you that Job was reward- 
ed — he was blessed at last. But what was Job's reward 
as a righteous man ? Why, in the close of life, he had a 
wife and children, and sheep and camels, and oxen and 
asses.— and this was evidence that he was fully rewarded 
in this world. The conclusion then is, that every man 
that has a wife and children, and sheep, and oxen, and ass- 
es, gives evidence that he is deeply pious and fit for heav- 
en. But some of the most blasphemous and wicked men 
on earth have all these evidences of piety, and the same 
reward. How shall we reconcile this ? There is a diffi- 
culty here* But we will not charge the fault upon the 
gentleman ; it is his system that drives him into such an at- 
tude as this. 

He quoted Ps. xcvi and xcviii, in support, as he stated, 
of his general affirmative. We now inform him that we 
pass this without reply, until he adduces all his proof on 
his affirmative, and then we will attend to it altogether.— 
He saw fit to withhold some of his proof when on his affir- 
mative, and now brings it up while on my question, to 

23* 



274 A DISCTTSSIOS 

have me go back and meet it. This is a singular course-** 
but I do not complain. 

He says that the day of general judgment, as taught in 
the Bible, took place at the destruction of Jerusalem. But 
here is an insuperable difficulty for him and his system. 
First, he asserts that the second coming of Christ took 
place 1800 years ago; that He then accomplished the 
whole business of His second coming. Then it follows 
that the general judgment has passed some 1800 years 
ago. 

Again: he staked his whole system on the resurrection 
of the dead. His arguments on this are still fresh in the 
minds of all who were present. 

But the Bible every where connects the resurrection of 
the dead, with the last or second coming of Jesus Christ. 
But Mr. D. says that Christ's second coming and the final 
judgment passed 1800 years since : then it follows that 
the resurrection took place 1800 ago: But who possessed 
of common sense can believe this? I brought this point 
up in a discussion some time since, with Mr. Kidwell, who 
stated I was the twenty second minister he had discussed 
this subject with, and his only reply was, "man does not 
know every thing that has taken place, and the resurrec- 
tion might have taken place 1800 years ago, and we know 
nothing about it." 

Now let my friend meet the point, that the coming of 
Jesus Christ and the resurrection are not future. 

We now proceed with our affirmative. You recollect 
we have now under consideration the second coming of 
Christ, and the final universal judgment of the world. 
The fact that the Bible teaches a universal judgment has 
been conceded by the gentleman The fact that the 
Lord Jesus Christ is the judge of the world, has been prov- 
ed and conceded. Now an important question that con- 
cerns us all is, has Jesus Christ come to judije the world? 
and has this coming been visib'e and personal to all. We 
maintain that no such thing has ever taken place in the 
whole history of the world, and that the event must be fu« 
ture or the Bible false. 

We have adduced proof to show that when Jesus Christ 



OH UNIVERSALISM. 275 

comes in the^ resurrection, and to judge the world his 
coming is to be literal, personal, and visible to every in- 
dividual of our race, as much so as his ascention was to 
the disciples who were present when he ascended to heav- 
en. 

Again : We have shown you that at his coming in the 
final judgment, the heavens and the earth are to pass a- 
way, and be dissolved by fire — a matter that is a subject of 
I observation- to every individual on the earth. But no such 
occurrence has taken place. Therefore, if the Bible tes- 
tifies truly, it is yet to take place in the future. Mr. D. 
had something to say about the destruction of this world 
being figurative. We have only to give him over into 
the hands of his favorite Dr. Clark, to settle this matter 
with him. 

We adduced proof to show that at this visible coming 
of Jesus Christ, the dead, good and bad, just and unjust— 
all the dead of our race shall be raised and the living 
changed. A circumstance that has never yet transpired. 
But the Bible has decided that it shall take place; and if 
it be a true record, and it has not yet taken pi ace-, the con- 
clusion is undeniable that it is yet future, and if so, my 
position is sustained bv the high authority of the word of 
God. 

We cite 1 Thes. iv. 13 — 18. "But I would not have you 
to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are a- 
sleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no 
hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, e- 
ven so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with 
him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, 
that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the 
Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the 
Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with 
the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: 
and the dead in Christ shall rise first : Then we which 
are alive and remain shall be caught up together with 
them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so 
shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore, comfort one 
another with these words." 

Mark here the living and the dead, are, at the coming 



378 a msctfssiotf 

of the Lord, with the shout— with the voice of the arch^ 
angel and the trump of God, which things are connected 
with the passing away of the visible heavens, and thedis^ 
solving of the elements by fire, not to meet at the destruc- 
tion of Jerusalem, but to be caught up, from this univer- 
sal change that is taking place in all God's dominions, by 
the power that said "Let there be light and there was 
light," to meet the Lord and to be ever with the Lord. 

Agam : 1 Cor. xv* 51* 52. "Behold I show you a 
mystery, we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be chang- 
ed. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the 
last trump: for the trump shall sound and the dead shall 
be raised incorruptible and shall be changed." Acts xxiv. 
14, 15,. "But this I confess unto thee, that after the way 
which they call heresy, so worship 1 the God of my fathers, 
believing all things which are written in the law and the 
prophets: And have hope toward God, which they then> 
selves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the 
dead, both of the just and unjust." Dan. xii. 1, 2. " And 
at that time shall Michael stand up, the great'prince which 
standeth for the children of thy people; and there shall 
be a time of trouble, such as there never was since there 
was a nation even to that same time: and at that time they 
shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written 
in the book* And many of them that sleep in the dust of 
the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life* and some 
to shame and everlasting contempt." Dr. Clark applies 
this declaration of Daniel to the last general judgment. 

Another passage already referred to, John v. 28, 29. 
11 Marvel not at this : for the hour is coming, in the which 
all that are iu the graves shall hear his voice, and shall 
come forth; they that have done good.- unto the resurrec- 
tion of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resur- 
rection of damnation," Rev xx. 12, 13< "And I saw the 
dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books 
were opened : and another book was opened, which is the 
book of life : and the dead were judged out of those 
things which were written in the books, according to their 
works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; 
and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in 



ON UNIVERSALIS*!. 277 

them: and ihey were judged every man according to their 
works." 

Dr. Clarke says this passage has reference specifically 
to the general universal resurrection, and final judgment 
and glorification of the pious, and endless perdition of the 
unbelieving and ungodly. And mark that this solemn 
scene, one that involves the interest of every member of 
our race, that includes the resurrection of the body, is by 
Divine revelation, inseparably connected with the visible 
coming of the Lord Jesus Christ, with all the holy angels 
with him, with the literal passing away of the heavens 
and the earth, with a shout with the voice of the Arch 
Angel and the trump of God, and raising of all the dead, 
and the changing of the living upon the earth. Now 
these things have either all transpired, or they are future, 
or the Bible records what never has and never will take 
place. The man that would say they have transpired in 
the past would be a fit subject for the mad-house. No 
individual would assert they have literally transpired, and 
if not, they are necessarily future. God has fixed it in 
his purpose that they shall be future, and then they must 
transpire as the word of God can never fail . And just so 
sure every individual is accountable to God's bar for his 
moral character here, and just so sure will his destiny be 
decided for eternity at that bar according to his moral 
character. [ Time expired. 

[mr. boolittle's thirteenth reply,] 

Gentlemen Moderators and this Respectable Congrega- 
tion. — 1 feel to congratulate you that we are assembled at 
this lime under such favorable circumstances. In the 
kind providence of Go^ 9 it is a glorious morning, and I hope 
you will cherish the desire, with your humble speaker, 
that as the natural sun has risen on the earth, dispelling 
the darkness and gloom of night, so the Son of righteous- 
ness may arise on every soul with healing in his beams, 
and that all darkness and error may be dispelled therefrom.. 

Our friend Power would have you believe that he has 
endeavored to maintain a mx)re serious deportment thaa 



278 A DISCUSSION 

myself, during this discussion, and charges me with having 
taken a course to excite levity in your minds. Now, I say 
this charge is unfounded altogether; and if any one has- 
been excited to levity by any remarks that I have made, 
it has been owing to the ludicrous position my friend oc- 
cupied before the audience, arid not to any intention on 
my part to excite any such feelings. I told you at the 
outset that we were all mutually interested in knowing 
the truth, with respect to the points involved in the ques- 
tions for debate, relative to the final and immortal desti- 
ny of our race, and that I had as much interest, in coming 
to the true light on this subject as any one. I told you I 
wanted you to exercise charity, and divest yourselves of 
all prejudices, and receive the truth from whatever source 
it might come, and decide accordingly. I cherish the 
same feeling still, and I hope now the enquiry with all will 
be, what is truth? And I hope you will treasure up the 
truth in your hearts, whether it will result in favor of the 
position of my friend or of your humble servant. 

My friend thinks I did not do away the force of his ar- 
gument, drawn from the book of Job. But he thought it 
was not owing to the want of talent on my part, but to the 
depravity and licentiousness of my system. But wheth- 
er I failed to remove the force of his argument or 
not, I leave you to decide for yourselves, and hope you 
will not let our friend decide for you. But to show you 
I have not failed here, I will refer to it once more. 

You remember my opponent's object was to show that 
the righteous were not recompensed in this world; that 
Job was not recompensed for his piety and patience in the 
present life. You remember I noticed the light in which 
many divines viewed the book of Job — that there was a 
difference of opinion about who was the author of the book; 
when it was written, and whether such a person ever liv- 
ed, or whether this was an allegory to give important in- 
struction to men, and of God's dealing with them. But our 
friend has insinuated that the position we took respecting 
the book of Job, savors of infidelity. He has brought the 
charge several times against me of holding infiiel senti- 
ments, and that our system is identified with infidelity. — 



ON TOIVERSALISM. 279 

I know his object well, it is to administer predjudice, which 
on a part ot this congregation is very strong. 

Now, as to the facts in the case of Job, Was Job, in 
his latter days, recompensed for all his ofTliction, or was 
he not? I adduce the proof to show that he was — let 
the book speak for itself, Job xlii. 10 — 17, "And the Lord 
turned the captivity of Job, when he prayed for his 
friends: also the Lord gave Job twice as much as he had 
before. Then came*there unto him all his brethren, and 
all his sisters, and all they that had been of his acquain- 
tance before, and did eat bread with him in his house; and 
they bemoaned him, and comforted him over all the evil 
that the Lord had brought upon him: every man also 
gave him a piece of money, and every one an ear-ring of 
gold. So the Lord blessed the latter end of Job more 
than his beginning: for he had fourteen thousand sheep, 
and six thousand camels, and a thousand yoke of oxen, 
and a thousand she-asses. He had also seven sons, and 
three daughters. And he called the name of the first Je- 
mima,- and the name of the second, Kezia; and the name 
of the third, Keren-happuch. And in all the land were 
no women found so fair as the daughters of Job: and their 
father gave them inheritance among their brethren. — 
After this lived Job a hundred and forty years, and saw 
his sons, and his sons' sons, even four generations. So 
Job died, being old and full of day*,* 9 He had twice as 
much as before. Does not this look as if he was recom- 
pensed for his afflictions? You recollect that I quoted 
from Prov. to show that the righteous shall be recompen- 
sed in the earth, much more the wicked and the sinner. — 
Our friend's position is in opposition to this. And he quo- 
ted from Job to show that the righteous are not recompen- 
sed in the earth. Now I quote from Job to show that 
Job was recompensed fully in the earth: and I ask you, 
my friends, if more signal blessings, or favors of God, 
could be bestowed upon a man in the earth, than are here 
described as being bestowed en Job? What more could 
he have desired than was bestowed upon him] His last 
days were emphatically his best days. He was blessed 
abundantly with all the good things of this life* Friends 



"280 A DISCUSSION 

congratulated him and brought him presents. Here the 
truth uttered by the wise man was'fully verified — * 4 the 
righteous shall be recompensed in the earth." 

Now I do not know but our friend lays such value on 
his good works, as to lay God under obligations to bestow 
upon him future immortal life and blessings. Perhaps he 
does. But I should be contented and satisfied fully, if I 
could have what good old Job had. I would ask no more 
of this world — no more of peace and^ranquility. God re- 
compensed Job double in this world, for his trials, and he 
left the world in peace and went to heaven, as I hope, and 
there to receive joy and peace for ever more — not as a re- 
ward for his good deeds in this life, but all there is be- 
stowed by the grace of God unmerited. Mow this is what 
I bring in opposition to the position of our opponent, show- 
ing that God does reward the righteous in this earth. 
» Our friend pledges himself, he says, to answer my 
counter testimony when I inform him that I am through. 
This is a very curious pledge, in order to get rid of ex- 
amining the testimony, which I bring in opposition to the 
doctrine of the endless misery of a portion of our race in 
an immortal state of existence. Now, in my opinion, he 
does not intend to answer this at all. He will defer it so 
long that he will say he has not time to attend to it. He 
does this designedly, for he cannot answer it. He pledg- 
ed me, yesterday, that, ifl would define what I understood 
by the devil, he would come up and show that those pas- 
sages which speak of the destruction of the devil and his 
works, did not mean any such thing. Well, I gave the de- 
finition, but he has failed to redeem his pledge. Now, I 
have proof against his main position, which 1 shall bring 
up from time to time. 1 shall not be able to bring it all 
up during the discussion, but shall produce as much of it 
as I can conveniently. And 1 hope our friend Power will 
attend to it, or admit that he is unable to remove its force. 

Now I come to an important point, a position that has 
a bearing on the position taken by our friend. He is la- 
boring to confound some two or three events, in order to 
produce confusion in your minds, and lead you to suppose 
he is maintaining his position from the Bible. He is con- 



ON UNI VERSA LTS3I. 281 

founding Christ's corning to judgment upon the Jewish na- 
tion,, with his coming in the resurrection. These are two 
distinct events. The Scriptures speak of two difFerent ad- 
vents of Christ. One in Matth. xxiv, is spoken of. It 
says — "the Son of man shall come in the clouds of heaven 
with power and great glory." This coming has refer- 
ence to His coming to indict judgment on the Jewish na- 
tion, according to the predictions of the Prophets, and His 
own predictions. And this coming to judgment on the 
Jewish nation to close up the legal dispensation, and fully 
establish the Gospel dispensation, waste take place during 
the existence of that generation — during the lifetime of 
some of Christ's Disciples. In Matth. xvi. 27, 28, Christ 
fixes this coming of His, during the life time of some of 
those to whom he was then speaking. Now this coming 
has already taken place. Christ was to come to execute 
judgment on the Jews. He was not literally to come in 
the clouds. Such language is figurative, and employ- 
ed by the Prophets to denote some great revolutions in 
I nations or governments, either politically or morally, 
and their final overthrow. As evidence of this, I cite 
you to similar language in Isaiah, xxxiv. 4. "And all 
the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens 
I shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their hosts 
! shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as 
a falling fi^ from the fig-tree." This language is not to 
I be understood literally, in reference to the future world. 
i Mark what follows. "Tor my sword shall be bathed in 
j heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and up- 
1 on the people of my curse, to judgment." Our friend tells 
you the judgment is all future. But here, it seems, the 
I judgment is coming down to take place in this world.— 
i The result of this judgment is more particularly described 
in what follows: "The sword of the Lord is filled with 
j blood; it is made fat with fatness, and with the blood of 
lambs and goats, with the fat of the kidneys of rams: for 
the lord hath a sacrifice in Bozrah, and a great slaughter 
in the land of Idumea. And the unicorns shall come down 
with them, and the bullocks with the bulls; and their land 

24 



282 



A DISCUSSION 



shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with 
fatness. For it is the day of the Lord's vengeance, and 
the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion. — - 
And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the 
dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall be- 
come burning pitch. It shall not be quenched night nor 
day: the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from gener- 
ation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass 
through it for ever and ever. But the cormorant and the 
bittern shall possess it; the owl also and the raven shall 
dwell in it: and he shall stretch out upon it the line of con- 
fusion, and the stones of emptiness." Now you see that 
such highly figurative language was employed by the 
writers of the Scriptures. All this in Isaiah, you see, 
has reference to*a scene in this world that has actual- 
ly transpired. So the Savior used similar language in 
reference to a similar event and that scene actually 
transpired about eighteen hundred years ago . 

But our friend tries to fix this coming of Christ fig- 
uratively to judge the Jewish nation (which judgment ac- 
tually took place) with his coming to raise the dead. He 
tries to make out that the passage in 2d Peter, Chap. iii. 
which speaks of the passing away of the heavens and the 
earth, has reference to the literal heaven and earth. But 
my friends, I showed you clearly, and illustrated it from 
my quotations from Heb. xii, that this had reference to 
the removal of the Jewish economy — the abolishment of 
the legal dispensation — and should be understood in a fig- 
urative sense, and not literally-— that if had no reference 
whatever to the end of the material world. 

Now, there is another coming of Christ, entirely distinct 
from His coming figuratively to judge the Jewish na- 
tion. Our friend quotes 1st Thes. iv. w hich speaks of the 
raising of the dead. Now this coming, here spoken of, to 
raise the dead, is entirely distinct from the coming we 
have described. But for our friend to make out any thing 
in his favor, he must show that when Christ comes per- 
sonally to raise the dead and to change the living up- 
on the earth, that this event will result in a judgmen 
and eternal separation of the human family, and the an- 



ON UNIVERSALIS*!. 283 

nouneing that a portion of them will be endlessly punish- 
ed in the future world. If he will do this he will make 
out his position. But if he faiis altogether of doing this, 
as he has done up to this stage of the discussion, then his 
, position is untenable, and he fails altogether of sustaining 
the affirmative of the question. 

One remark. I was in hopes to have had time to no- 
tice again the passages my friend has quoted, with respect 
to the resurrection. I will do it when 1 rise again, and 
show that they fail of proving his position. [_Time expired. 

[mr. power's fourteenth speech.] 

Gentlemen Judges. — This is not the first time that we 
have had our sympathies excited with reference to a theo- 
logical opponent. I have rarely ever discussed the system 
1 am now opposing without more or less of such feelings. 
And, I again say, in reference to my worthy friend, that 
it is not the want of talent on his part, but it is his system, 
which compels him to appear before this community in the 
light that he now does. He is again informed that I must 
pass his remarks till he shall meet my argument drawn 
from the case of Job. 

The question at issue under this head is not whether the 
righteous and the wicked are finally rewarded and pun- 
ished or not. We both concede that under God's plan of 
moral government the righteous will be fully rewarded 
and the wicked punished according to their deeds. But 
this is not the issue. He maintains that these rewards 
and punishments are in their fullest extent absolutely con- 
lined to this world. We maintain that, while the right- 
eous are rewarded with a good conscience and all the com- 
forts of religion and the wicked are troubled with a guilty 
conscience, and sometimes on account of great wickedness 
are punished with judgments from God, yet these rewards 
and punishments are not final in this world; but that the 
final retribution is reserved for the future world. This 
is the true position in which we stand. And he has tried 
to reconcile the case of Job to final Judgment in this world. 



284 A DISCUSSION 

And as evidence of this he said that Job had a wife and' 
children and sheep and oxen and asses, and friends that 
gave him silver in this world. [Mr. Doolittle here arose 
and said he wished to correct the gentleman ,— that he has 
not contended that the rewards of the righteous consisted, 
in asses and goats and oxen, but simply that the rewards 
of the righteous were bestowed upon them in this world.] 
I would ask if he has adduced any other evidence besides 
the possession of wife and children and oxen and sheep &c. 
— Mr. D. "I do not wish for any more evidence." — Well 
the gentleman has reaffirmed that the possession of a wife 
and children and friends and their giving him silver, and 
his having sheep and camels and oxen and asses, is evi- 
dence that the righteous are fully and finally rewarded in 
this world. He says he wants no farther evidence than 
this. 

But we refer you to higher authority on this than our 
friend. And would ask him too, if Christ whose teaching 
is infallible, when he says "lay up for yourselves treasures 
in heaven" does not contrast them with those treasures of 
earth* such as oxen and sheep &c ? The apostle says I Pet.. 
i. 3, 4 "Blessed be the God and father of our Lord Jesus 
Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begot - 
ten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus 
Christ from the dead, to an inheritance incorruptible and 
unde filed, and that fadeth not away reserved in heaven for 
you." Heiethe Holy spirit speaking by the apostle has 
fixed the time of receiving the incorruptible inheritance, 
the final reward, to the last day, or to the future world "in 
heaven." But the gentleman will make the Savior say. 
"Lay up for yourselves treasures, that is, sheep and oxen 
and silver in heaven." To say nothing of its infidelity 
and licentiousness, what a system it must be that could 
place such a man as my worthy friend, a man of his talents, 
in such a ludicrous position before this intelligent com- 
munity ! 

But his position, with all the tenacity with which he 
contends for it, is much more ludicrous if possible, when 
viewed from other points. What would you think of thr 
laws of Ohio if the seducer could come and. destroy the v 



bN UNIVERSALIS^!. 285 

and peace of your domestic circle, the murderer take 

lives of your children, the robber take your purse, and 

I if you complained at all, the infamous assassin could cut 

I your throat, and the laws of the state should take up all 

I the felons that had thus ruined you, and not only arrest, 

J but try, condemn, sentence, and inflict on them the full 

penalty of the law for their crime and yet they neither 

knew nor believed that they had been arrested or suffered 

any punishment whatever ? — what would you think of such 

laws as these I Why, you would say that such a code of 

laws, should be the detestation of every intelligent being 

in the universe. But the gentleman's position involves 

much greater folly and infamy than this. 

What does his system maintain ? Why that the infa- 
mous seducer and corrupt adulterer in the very act of crime, 
blighting the peace and happiness of soul and body here, 
•and according to the word of God, in the endless future, 
and the robber that takes your purse, and the bloodthirsty 
assassin that cuts your throat, are all of them under the 
I moral government of God, — -at the very time too of 
their committing their acts — being judged, condemned and 
I punished to the full extent of their crimes— while they 
neither feel or know that they suffer any punishment 
whatever, and will assert that they are not punished at all, 
1 and feel nothing to deter them from going into such crimes 
again and continuing in them through lite. And yet Mr, 
Ds. system says to each one, you are now suffering the 
full penalty for your crimes, and if you should now die in 
the act of crime, the full penalty of the crime is felt, and 
you are sure of heaven as soon as you leave the world. 
It* you die a liar or adulterer or murderer, God will in some 
way effect a change in your character, and you are just 
as sure of heaven as if you were now there. Is this mere 
speculation? L>ok about on sinners. Do they believe 
I they have been fully punished, or are now being fully pun- 
J ished for their sins I No, they do not believe it in life or 
I in death. Now look at the gentleman's position. He has 
{ said during this discussion, '-that all sinners are punished 
j as a matter of fact, though they may not believe it." Then 
what has a man to d; to avoid the Universalist Hell ? 

24* 



286 a Disctfssioff 

Nothing but to become an orthodox sinner,- and — if the 
doctrine of Universal ism is true — reject their doctrine and 
then he is free from all punishment in this world or in the 
future world. 

1 ask again, w r ould a gentleman of our friend's learning, 
and sense,— and you see he is something of a philosopher 
into the bargain, — -would he place himself in such a posi- 
tion before this community, if it were not for the utter fal- 
sity and licentiousness of his system ? Do not think that 
it is the want of talents in our friend, or skill in discussion^ 
for I have a document that says he is fully able and com-- 
petent to discuss this question. 

Our mutual friend Esq. Tenney, recommended him- 
to me as one able to discuss the whole subject, and that his 
friends were willing to trust the matter in his hands. And h 
will say that he is the ninth gentleman with whom I have 
discussed this subject and he is fully at par or a little above 
any of them, and yet the depravity of his system has placed 
him in this unenviable attitude before you. 

Let us look at this from another point. Take the abom- 
inable business of gambling. This is a species of the Uni- 
versalist hell. The moment a man goes to the card-table 
he goes into hell, and the smoke of his torment goes up, 
frequently, from sundown till morning light, and he is in 
the agonies of hell. How intolerable it is! But he has 
the key to come out in the morning. But after he escapes 
he is not as cautious as was the goat. Some men enticed 
a goat into a tavern and got him drunk, and he amused 
them much with his pranks. But after he became sober 
no inducement could ever get the goat into the tavern 
again. Not so with him who has been in this hell. He 
is almost ready to chide the sun in the heavens for his tar- 
diness in delaying the night, so that he can turn his key 
and go again into hell. He loves to live there. And I 
expect, if, in some of those places, my friend were to con- 
ceal their key, they would drum him out of town. They 
would not like to be deprived of the privilege of going to 
hell. The gentleman need not fear that I will plead want 
of time to meei his counter proof which he may bring. 

One remark more in this place. I wish it understood 



ON UNIVERSALIS!*! 287 

fn this community — not however in the character of com- 
plaint — that I have not been discussing the subject, with 
my friend Mr. Doolittle alone for he has had a council of 
war all the time. And I am meeting the whole strength 
of the Universalist ministers of this region. And I am 
glad to do it, and do not blame my friend for availing him- 
self of the help. 1 wish he had a score more to assist 
him. 

My friend said he had explained his position with regard 
to the devil and I had avoided it. You will recollect his 
position on this point. He said the devil did not imply an 
imelligent being or agent abstract and separate from man. 
This was his negative position. His positive definition 
was, the devil as taught in the Bible is the spirit or principle 
of evil personified. I then asked him if every man that is 
tempted of the devil had this principle of evil in him; and 
he answered in the affirmative. We then required him to 
reconcile this evil principle with the temptation of the Sa- 
vior on the mount, — Jesus Christ being holy, harmless, 
undefiled and separate from sin. And when he would tell 
us how this eviL principle cast out of man went into the 
swine, ane caused them to rnsh into the lake and drown ; 
then we would meet him en this point, but till then wo 
should consider him fully refuted on this head. 

But lest he should think w r e slight him, we will say, 
thai no one will deny that Jesus Christ was tempted by 
the devil. But the devil acording to Mr. D. is an evil 
principle inseparable from human nature. Then it fol- 
lows that Jesus Christ had this principle, this devil in his 
nature. Jesus Christ with all the purity of his nature, 
was as much possessed with the devil as those out of whom 
he cast the deviis ! This is blasphemy, and rejects Jesus 
Christ as the Holy one! I hope our friend will try to get 
out of this position, if he cannot alone, let him call these 
ministers to his help, and then if all of them cannot, I hope 
a coroner's inquest will be held over this defunct system. 
I have showed that the gentleman's position is blasphe- 
mous, for holding that Jesus Christ was possessed with a 
devil. But if he says that Jesus Christ did not possess 
this devil, then he has to take this principle personified, 



238 A DISCUSSION 

and give it a body, such as he has described in another 
place, or give it some other shape to suit himself, so that 
he can get it in some way into the mountain, to tempt the 
Savior. And furthermore, he has to assume that this prin- 
ciple which has only a relative existence, is created into 
an abstract, separate principle, and is cast out of a man 
and enters into a herd of swine, and caused them in their 
phrenzy to rush into the waters and perish. Now, we 
think the gentleman will not complain that we have passed 
over this poiat. 

We now proceed with the arguments. It has been 
shown that Jesus Christ is to come literally and visibly, in 
the glory of his Father with the holy angels to judge the 
world.- That this is connected with the passing away of 
the visible heavens and earth, and with the dissolving of 
the elements by fire. And that this coming is connected 
with the resurrection of the dead. 

I now proceed to show that the whole race of mankind 
will be personally assembled at the bar of God, when 
Christ comes to judge the world. Matth. xxv. 32. "And 
before him shall be gathered all nations, and he shall sep- 
arate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his 
sheep from the goats." Acts xvii. 31. "Because he hath 
appointed a day in the which he will judge the world in 
righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained, where- 
of he hath given assurance unto all men in that he hath 
raised him from the dead." 2d Peter ii. 4. "For if God 
spared not the angels that sinned* but cast, them down to hell, 
and delivered them into chains of darknes to be reserv- 
ed unto judgment." Jude 6. "And the angels which kept 
not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath 
reserved in everlasting chains, under darkness, unto the 
judgment of the great day." [Time expired. 

[mr. doolittle's fourteenth reply.] 

My Friends — I hope that our honorable opponent here 
will endeavor to keep cool a little longer. I do not won- 
der, however, that he is agitated at this stage of the dis- 
cussion; He is aware of the heavy responsibilities rest- 



ON UNIVERSALIS*!, 289 

ing upon him, and that he is far behind in argument and 
proof to sustain his position. Pie has assailed our system, 
I had almost said, for the hundredth time, accusing it of 
Infidelity and licentiousness, and of every thing that is 
bad. I have always observed that when an opponent re- 
sorted to such a course it was because he had no better 
arguments. But the question is not what is the charac- 
ter of our system, but what do the Scriptures teach con- 
cerning the immortal destiny of man? My friend is to 
prove, if he can, that a portion of our race will suffer end- 
less punishment in a state of immortality. And I want 
you, my friends, to mark well the nature of the proof he 
adduces to sustain this position. I have felt calm during 
this whole discussion, not a doubt has flitted across my 
mind as to where the proof from the Bible would rest be- 
fore this community. And now I say, at this time, what 
I ventured to predict yesterday, that our friend, notwith- 
standing he possesses as much ability as any man on his 
part that could be brought into the field, has utterly failed 
thus far to sustain his position, and will continue to fail 
till the close, Now i refer to what he says is our relative* 
position at this point. He says that I maintain that the- 
final consummation of all rewards and punishments will 
take place in this world. Whereas, he maintains the po- 
sition that the rewards of the righteous will be fully con- 
summated in the eternal state — that there they will be for 
ever happy, and that then the punishment of the wicked 
will be fully visited upon them, and they will suffer in 
endless perdition. 

And now I ask again, for the fifth or sixth time, what 
proof he has brought to show that any will be punished 
endlessly in an immortal state of existence? He has la- 
bored with a good deal of ability and ingenuity, to prove 
that there is to be a final future judgment for all men, and 
that at that judgment, eternal life will be awarded to some, 
and everlasting misery to others, On the other hand, for 
the purpose of putting a veto on this position, altogether I 
have clearly and demonstratively shown from the Scrip- 
tures, in harmony with reason, and with the great volume- 
of nature every where spread out before us, and with the- 



290 A DISCUSSION 

history of our race, that this is not the fact; but that the 
present world is the place of retribution; that God metes 
out to man in this life, rewards and- punishments, in exact 
proportion to merit and demerit. 

For the benefit of many who where not here yesterday, 
I will repeat. I said there is a God, the judge of all the 
earth, who judgeth in the earth, and that the day that 
God had appointed in which He would judge the world in 
righteousness, by Jesus Christ, was the Gospel day, inclu- 
ding the whole Mediatorial reign of Christ. And in con- 
firmation of this fact I quoted our Savior's declaration — ■ 
"Now is the judgment of this world, now shall the prince of 
this world be judged." He did not say the judgment of 
this world would be in the future state, but "now is the 
judgment of this world, and for judgment I am come into 
this world.'' Again: I quoted the declaration of the wise 
man. "I saw under the sun the place of judgment." — 
Under the sun, mark. And why was judgment under the 
sun? Because "wickedness was there, and in the place of 
righteousnes; that iniquity was there." Again: I said 
that all this was in harmony with other declarations of 
holy writ. 

The prophet said, speaking of Christ, "He shall not fail 
nor be discouraged till he hath set judgment in the earth, 
and the isles shall wait for his law." And the results of 
this judgment, we said, would all be glorious, and we 
should all rejoice in view of them. Whereas, the position 
taken by my friend is, that we shall mourn and lament at 
the results of the judgment. For he says it will result in 
the endless perdition and misery of a great portion of the 
human family. But no such results are spoken of in con- 
nection with the judgment, which the Bible teaches, takes 
place. In view of the judgment in this world, the Bible 
speaks of the joy and peace attending the way of the righ- 
teous, while it says the way of the transgressor is hard, 
and there is no peace to the wicked. But such will be the 
results of the judgment here that we are all called upon to 
rejoice on account of it. In proof of this, I quoted Psa. xcvL 
10 — 13. "Say among the heathen, that the Lord reigri- 
eth: the world also shall be established that it shall not be: 



ON UNIVERSALIS*!. 291 

moved: he shall judge the people righteously. Let the 
heavens rejoice, and let the earth be glad; let the sea roar, 
and the fullness thereof. Let the field be joyful, and all 
that is therein: then shall all the trees of the wood re- 
joice before the Lord: for he cometh, for he cometh to 
judge the earth: he shall judge the world with righteous- 
ness, and the people with his truth." And the same, 
nearly, is repeated again in the 98th Psalm, and here all 
are called upon to rejoice because the Lord is coming to 
judge the world in righteousness, and the Psalmist does not 
tell us that this judgment is to be in the future world, as 
our friend affirms. And there is a good reason why he does 
not tell us it will r be in the future world, for it has nothing 
to do with the future world; for where a man sows, there 
shall he reap. <; He that soweth to the flesh shall of the 
flesh reap corruption, but he that soweth to the spirit shall 
of the spirit reap life everlasting." Mark, a man reaps 
where he sows his grain. "And this," says the Savior, "is 
life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, 
and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent. He that believeth 
on me hath everlasting life." Those who sow to the 
spirit do now, where they sow, reap this life everlasting. 
"He that soweth to the flesh shall reap corruption." But 
shall he reap corruption in the future world? in an immor- 
tal state, where all are raised incorruptible, and are equal 
unto the angels, and are the children of God, being the 
children of the resurrection, and not subject to death any 
more? How can he reap corruption there? Flesh and 
blood cannot inherit the kingdom of immortality. It is im- 
possible. So you see that our friend has altogether failed 
to sustain even the preliminary part of his argument — 
that there is a judgment in the future world. I admitted 
the universality of the judgment, and proved it, and where 
it was. I proved that all shall stand before the judg- 
ment seat of Christ, and that every one shall receive, in 
the body — not out of the body — his reward according to 
isdeeds. 

Our friend has quoted many texts, and we have noticed 
them all, and will notice all he will bring, but in all, 
not a single word is said about a judgment beyond 



292 A DISCUSSION 

the present world. It is as clear as the shining of the sun 
in the heavens this cloudless morning, that not a single 
text he has brought has any reference to an immortal 
state of existence. 

I come now to notice some other strange things that our 
friend has said. He represents me as holding to some ri- 
diculous and false positions. And you noticed he told us 
he had been informed that Mr. Doolittle was a man of some 
talent, sense, and philosophy — that his friends had confi- 
dence in him, as competent to debate the points at issue — • 
and that he was the ninth man he had discussed with, and 
he thought he was fully at par, or a little more, with any 
man he had ever debated with, and yet, he represented that 
this same able gentleman maintained the foolish position 
that the wicked were fully punished for their sins in this 
world, and yet they know nothing about it. Now this is 
a very erronous idea. 

[Mr. Power here made a correction, saying: "I asserted 
that the gentleman maintained that sinners are punished 
in this world in exact proportion to the multitude and 
magnitude of their sins, and I then maintained that if this 
were true, thousands of persons died, not knowing it — but 
in life and in death they deny having been punished ac- 
cording to the multitude and magnitude of their sins."] 

Well, our friend Power says it is his assertion, and I hope 
you will take it for what it is worth for assertion is not 
proof, if it were, he would make out his position very clearly. 
My assertion is just as much proof as his, but Ijdo not want 
you to rely on his or my assertion, but on the scriptures. 

But as to the assertion, it is very curious that sinners 
should be punished hereon earth, and yet know nothing 
about it. I want to know if David, the adulturer and 
murderer, knew nothing about being punished for his sins 
when he said "the pains of hell gat hold on me, and the 
sorrows of death encompassed me." And when he thanked 
God for delivering him from the lowest hell, into which he 
had fallen in this world for his sins? And when God 
meted out the punishment of Cain in this world, for his 



Otf UNIVERSALIS*!. 293 

'sirrs, did he know nothing about it. When he exciaimed 5 
*'my punishment is greater than lean bear," did he not 
know that he was punished for his sins in this world? 

Did the Antediluvians know nothing about their pun- 
ishment, when they were all destroyed from the face of 
the earth, on account of their great corruption? Did not 
the Sodomites, after they had been repeatedly warned by 
righteous Lot, and still persevered in their iniquity, know 
that they were punished for their sins when the Lord 
rained fire and brimstone upon them, and they were all 
destroyed, and their city sunk? We will now let the gen- 
tleman's assertion on this go for what it is worth. 

As to the charge of licentiousness and infidelity, I say 
no more about it, only that this is the course pursued by 
errorists, and has been in all ages of the church, against 
those who hold to the truth. The Roman Catholics 
charged the Protestants with heresy, for which they doom- 
ed them to be roasted alive. But what does this amount 
to? Of what advantage here is it to raise the cry of mad 
dog! mad dog! or endeavor to make our system a devour- 
ing beast, with head and horns? We know well the ob- 
ject of the gentleman; it is to excite your prejudice against 
our views, and keep you from looking candidly at our ar- 
guments. But we trust'that you have too mucii sense to 
be swayed by such false charges as these. 

The gentleman says he is not contending with me alone, 
but with all the Universalis! ministers in this region. — > 
Why I told you before, that my friends had gathered 
around me here, as his friends had around him; but not for 
the purpose of assistance. I have never requested any of 
my brethren to assist me. The gentleman has accused 
me, not only of getting help here, but of calling to my aid 
Dr. Clarke. I suppose he would have you believe that he 
relies entirely on his own ability, to carry on this dicus- 
sion. But this is not altogether the case. If I am not 
mistaken, he has a certain book lying before him, entitled, 
"Power on Universalism," and he follows up the author 
very closely. So I would have you know that I am not 
contending with my friend Power alone, but with the Rev. 
John H. Power on Universalism. How strictly he has 

25 



2P4 A DISCUSSION 

conformed to the letter and spirit of that work, as all who 
are familiar with the work well know. 

But my friend wants me to give him some more light 
about the devil. 

Now I have given him all the light he requested me to 
give in the outset, as a condition of his examining my 
texts. Me said when I would give my definition of what 
the devil was, he would take hold of my proof texts and ex- 
amine them. Well, I told him that I did not believe that the 
devil was a created personal being, or any thing separate 
from the spirit of evil in man; that I did not believe he 
was a creature with a body as large as twice ten thousand 
mammoths, with eyes like two blazing comets, and a tail 
that would draw a third part of the stars of heaven after 
it; and that he roamed over the earth, unseen, seeking to 
catch and dnig men and women down to hell. Now, for 
the gentleman to redeem his pledge, he must come up here 
and meet my proof texts; and, as L told yon, he can do no- 
thing without the use of the devil. For if the sheriff is 
destroyed, will not the prisoners escape? I have proved 
the destruction of the devil and of his works, and now I 
want the gentleman to take hold of this point. 

1 shall not inform our friend when I shall get through 
with the proof in support of my position. I have given 
him some proof which put a veto on his position entirely. 
This he has not upset, and he is getting behind hand, and 
will be lost for ever if he does not come up soon to the 
work. 

Now I will adduce another proof on my argument, Matth. 
xxii.37 — 40. "Jesus said unto him, thou shalt love the 
Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, 
and with all thy mind. This is the first and great com- 
mandment. And the second is like unto it, thou shalt love 
thy neighbor as thyself. On these two commandments 
hang all the law and the prophets.'" Here the law of God 
is laid down, and this law of love is made obligatory on 
every individual of our race; it is a universal law. And 
our Savior has told us "Till heaven and earth pass one 
jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law till all 
be fulfilled." Hence, this proves conclusively that all 



ON UNIVERSALISM. 295 

moral beings will be brought to love God with all their 
hearts, and their neighbor as themselves. And "love is 
the fulfilling of the law." Now this proof, with kindred 
others from the Bible, proves conclusively that all will 
love God; consequently be holy and happy. 

[Time expired. 

[ME. POWER'S fifteenth speech.] 

Gentlemen Judges and this attentive Congregation. — 
Our Universalist friends on other occasions have given in- 
timations that it was perilous to hear the conclusion of a 
debate of this kind, but I hope our friends here are not of 
this character; and that they will stay and hear the con- 
clusion, as we hope to close this evening. 

A remark on the gentleman's observations about a cer- 
tain book. He thought I had made it a matter of com- 
plaint that he had obtained aid from commentaries and 
other sources. I by no means intended to complain, but 
saidnhat I had come to this discussion relying for support 
on the Scriptures, not intending to use commentaries and 
authors. And I would not have departed from this course 
but to save the respected dead from misrepresentation and 
as an offset to the gentleman's position. But he adduced 
a certain author and said I adhered to him very closely. 
Well this is rather a delicate matter, but lest the audience 
should not be informed, I would say that Power the author 
of that book is Mr. Doolittle's present opponent. And 
further that since that book was written, I have not but in 
a very few instances referred to it in debate, and then only 
as a matter of historical reference, as the doctrines of sev- 
eral standard Universalist authors are recorded in that 
work. 

His remark on my pledge to notice his texts &c, on 
the devil contains a mistake. I said whenever he would 
define his position with reference to the devil, I would 
show that his interpretation was false and afforded no sup- 
port to his system. Weil he "defined his position as he 
said, and we have shown that it makes Jesus Christ a de- 
praved and corrupt being, and it makes a relative prin* 



296 A DISCUSSION 

eiple, an abstract individual principle. Now an interpre- 
tation that involves such consequences and absurdities must 
be false. But his interpretation does this ; and therefore 
is an utter preversion of the word of God. We think we 
have now redeemed the pledge. [Mr. Doolittle here re- 
marked that the gentleman did not come right to the point 
yet, that his pledge was to examine the texts he quoted in 
Heb. and 1 John, and shew that they did not prove the 
destruction of the devil and his works, and that the pledge 
was not redeemed.] Very well, I still claim that the gen- 
tleman either willfully or from his confusion on the point 
misunderstands me. But lest he should think we fear to 
notice the texts we make an additional remark. Mr. D's. 
supposed support lies in assuming that in the language of 
the Bible, destruction, necessarily means annihilation, or 
taking the things destroyed to heaven. This we deny. 
And till he proves it, all he may say on the subjuct will 
avail him nothing. The devil shall be destroyed, — so 
brought under Christ*s power and so subdued and confined 
that he will be utterly unable to make any resistance or 
any more disturb the peace of the church, or pass his 
limits. 

The gentleman asserted that he has noticed all my texts. 
He has not met one of the numerous texts that I have ad- 
duced on my affirmative ; but merely said they did not 
touch the point and so passed them. He used the text, "he 
that soweth to the flesh, shall of the flesh reap corruption; 
but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap 
life everlasting." 

Now the results of sowing to the flesh or Spirit are eith- 
er absolutely confined to this world or to the future world, 
or they commence here and extend into the future world, 
If he admits that the results extend into the future world 
he yields the whole ground. But if to avoid this he con- 
fines the "corruption" resulting from sowing to the flesh 
to this world, and confines the "life everlasting" resulting 
from sowing to the Spirit absolutely to this world, then it 
indispensibly follows that the saint that sows to the Spirit, 
if he go into heaven at all, will be there without everlasting 
life , "He that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap 



$ft UNIVERSALIS*!. 297 

Site everlasting" or eternal life. Bat he says this is con- 
fined exclusively to this world and cannot extend into the 
future world. And consequently if the individual who 
has sown to the Spirit goes into the future world, it is with- 
out eternal life, and if he goes there without this life, he 
will eternally remain without it. 

A word in relation to the sixth edition of the gentle- 
man's formal and philosophical argument to show that the 
final general judgment takes place in this world. 

We have explained our views on this subject with suf- 
ficient clearness, and will only add, that it is said that Sam- 
uel, Jephthah, Sampson and others judged Israel so many 
years each. What do we understand by their judging Is- 
rael ? Why, only that they administered the government 
at that time. And in this sense God judges the earth. He 
administers the government that he has adopted, and well 
adapted to man in this world. But this by no means super- 
cedes the final judgment of God, at the consummation of 
all things when every individual of our race will be called 
before His bar, and the final sentence passed upon each ac- 
cording to their moral character in this world, when the 
wicked shall go away into everlasting punishment and 
the righteous into life eternal. He is exceedingly unfor- 
tunate in the cases referred to in proof of his position. For 
example, the antediluvians, and Sodomites, they, accord- 
ing to Mr. D. were finally judged, and fully punished for 
their sins in this world. VVhat are the facts in the case? 
Why, after a life of unparalleled wickedness they were, 
by a sudden death of a few moments, or at most a few 
hours suffering, taken to heaven ; whi!e Noah, and Lot, as 
a final reward for their righteousness were denied that 
privilege, and doomed to many years toil and suffering 
in this world ! So you see my friend not only fails to 
sustain his point, but clearly proves our charge, that his 
system offers a reward for wickedness. If Lot and Noah 
had been as corrupt as their neighbors they would have 
gone to heaven with them. But alas ! their piety shut them 
out from heaven for many long years of trial and suffer- 
ings ! 

I am surprised that he should quote the command that 
*25 



298 A DISCUSSION 

we should love God with all our heart and our neighbor 
as ourself, to proof Universalism. This is like some oth- 
er of his random shots, in adducing his proof. And when 
he shall have brought forward all his proof on his affirma- 
tive, then we stand pledged to dispose of it and show that 
so far from sustaining his positions it contradicts ail of 
them. 

With regard to the licentiousness of his system, and the 
effort on my part as he says to gain some revenue by ex- 
citing the prejudices of the congregation against it. If I 
cannot have a more sure source of revenue than this 1 will 
change my business. I do not wish a revenue that de- 
pends on the prejudices of the people. Our cause appeals 
for support to enlightened common sense and to the word 
of God. But there is another view of this subject. The 
gentleman desires to forestall the truth in the case by rais- 
ing a "revenue" in another corner. We told you in the 
outset that the system we oppose is at eternal issue with 
the word of God, and that one feature of it is to claim 
common ground with the christian denominations in the 
land, in order to conceal its real character, and it dreads 
to have its covering taken off. 

We brought the change of infidelity against the system 
understandingly, and in winding up the business will sus- 
tain it by proof that no Universalist will question for a 
moment, unless he will abandon Mr. Doolittle altogether; 
for he shall be my witness in this case. I will prove rny 
premises by him and then every one can easily draw the 
conclusion. 

The gentleman need not fear that we will slight him in 
his proof. We stand pledged to pay attention to it in time. 
He has not met in detail one of the texts quoted in my last 
three speeches although he asserted that he had not passed 
by one of them. He cited Matth. xvi, 27, 28. "For the 
Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his 
angels; and then he shall reward every man according to 
his works. Verily I say unto you, there be some standing 
here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son 
of man coming in his kingdom." To have this avail him 
he must have this last clause read, "till they see the Son 



ON UNIVERSALIS]*!. 299 

of man coming in the glory of his father icith his angels' 7 
but unfortunately for him it reads very differently. It is a 
mere assumption to make Christ's declarations in both 
these verses refer to the same event. There are two 
prominent, all important, and interesting events contem- 
plated in this address. And they are clearly defined. 
First the Son of man will come in the glory of his Father 
with his angels and then he shall reward every man ac- 
cording to his works. This is a universal proposition and 
includes every one of our race. This coming is yet future. 
At this coming Christ will appear to all in the glory of his 
Father with the holy angels with him, the earth shall be 
burned up and the dead shall be raised, and every person 
shall stand at the bar of God in his own personal character. 
But another thing is referred to, which would be an evi- 
dence when it took place that Christ would come to the 
final judgment in the manner he had described. Some 
should not taste death till they saw the Son of man coming 
in his kingdom. But the kingdom of Godcometh not with 
literal observation, but in the manifestation of the power 
of God by his Spirit, convicting the sinner and leading 
him to forsake his wicked ways and turn to the Lord, and 
filling his people with the Holy Spirit as on the day of Pen- 
tecost. It will be plain, to every one who carefully ex- 
amines this passage, that Christ speaks of two events. One 
is his coming with the angels to judge the world. He says 
in another place "this generation shall not pass till all 
these things be fulfilled. " But what does "generation" 1 ' 
mean in the language of the Bible ? It is used to repre- 
sent moral character, "this wicked generation," "Gener- 
ation of the righteous," &c. Christ used it to denote mor- 
al character. Then "this generation," the righteous should 
not pass away till all be fulfilled. 

But when Christ speaks of coming in his kingdom alone 
without the angels, he says — "there be some standing here 
that shall not taste of death," till they witness this event. 
This was his coming on the day of Pentecost, coming in 
his spiritual kingdom. 

I was quoting proof when last on the floor to show that all 
mankind, good and bad, men and angels, in connection with 



300 



A DISCUSSION 



the coming of Jesus Christ, at the resurrection of the dead, 
and the burning up of the world, should be assembled at 
the bar of God. We now give a few more quotations on 
the same subject. Eccl. xii, 14. "For God shall bring 
every work into judgment, with every secret thing, wheth- 
er it be good or whether it be evil." Matt, xii, 38, 37. 
"But I say unto you, that every idle word that men shall 
speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judg- 
ment. For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy 
words thou shalt be condemned." 

We now cite some passages that have reference to the 
final decision at the bar of God, fixing the eternal destiny of 
each one according to his moral character. Matt. xxv. chapt. 
34, 41, and 46, verses. "Then shall the king say unto 
them on his right hand, come, ye blessed of my father, in- 
herit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation 
of the world. Then shall he say also unto them on the 
left hand, depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, 
prepared for the devil and his angels. And these shall go 
away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into 
life eternal." It will be seen from the connection here, 
that all nations are included, the good and the bad. The 
strongest language is used to denote universality. And 
here the final decision is made. "And these [the wicked] 
shall go away into everlasting punishment; but the right- 
eous into life eternal." This decision is unalterable. The 
eternal destiny is now sealed. Again, 2 Thess. chapt. i. 
7 — 10 verses. "And to you, who are troubled, rest with 
us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven 
with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance 
on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel 
of our Lord Jesus Christ : who shall be punished with ever- 
lasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from 
the glory of his power ; when he shall come to be glorified 
in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe 
(because our testimony among you was believed) in that 
day." Rev. xx, 13 — 15, "And the sea gave up the dead 
which were in it ; and death and hell delivered up the 
dead which were in them : and they were judged every 
man according to their works. And death and hell were 



ON UNIVERSALiBM.. 301 

cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And 
whosoever was not found written in the book of life was 
cast into the lake of fire." Rev, chapt. xxi, verse 8. 
"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and 
murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idol- 
aters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which 
burnetii with fire and brimstone: which is the second 
death." And Jude 7th verse. "Even as Sodom and Go- 
morrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving 
themselves over to fornication, and going after strange 
flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance 
of the eternal fire." 

We will just remark, that in the application of these 
passages of scripture we have the authority of the gentle- 
man's able critic Dr. Adam Clarke. 

We have shown that the wicked will be separated from 
the righteous at the final judgment, and will adduce fur- 
ther proof that they will be endlessly separated and pun- 
ished. Now will the gentleman inform me when he has 
finished bringing forward all his proof? [Time expired. 

[mr. doolittle's fifteenth reply.] 

I presume the majority of those who were present at the 
outset of the discussion, recollect that our friend claimed 
that a certain postscript gave him liberty to enter the 
whole field of Universalism for full and free discussion; 
and that he pledged himself to this intelligent congrega- 
tion to stay here till he had buried the system of Univer- 
salism and performed its funeral honors; and I feel some- 
what inclined to hold him to his pledge. I have heard no- 
thing of his intention to redeem the pledge for two days 
past, but I hope he has not forgotten it. I should judge, 
from the position he occupies, this is getting to be an up- 
hill business, and that we shall not have the grave dug, 
and the funeral rites attended to; especially, if he intends 
to have the debate closed to-day. 

With these remarks, I now will notice some of the gen- 
tleman's statements in his last speech. 

He says my definition of the devil, makes Jesus Christ 



302 A DISCUSSION 

a depraved, corrupt being. What was my definition? t 
said i did not believe the devil was a separate, created be- 
ing. This, he says, will make Chirst a depraved being. 
But this does not follow. The texts I quoted shows 
that Christ will destroy the devil and his works — that he 
was manifested for this purpose. The devil inherits flesh 
and blood — belongs to all the children of men — is inhe- 
rent in their earthly constitution. Now, Christ takes up- 
on himself this same human nature, that he might destroy 
the devil and his works. Says the Apostle, "We have 
not an high priest that cannot be touched with the feeling 
of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we 
are, yet without sin. 5 ' Now you see, being tempted of 
the devil does not suppose sin in the individual tempted. 
Christ was tempted in all repects as we are, because he 
took upon him human nature, and was incident to all the 
temptations arising from this nature; but he did not yield 
to the temptation, consequently, he was without sin. — 
Now I hope my friend will not any longer contend that my 
definition makes Christ a depraved being. 

The next remark of the gentleman was, that when the 
Bible speaks of destroying the devil, we are not to sup- 
pose it means taking him to heaven. Very true. And 
we have not contended for any such thing. I do not be- 
lieve the Bible teaches any such thing, of course ; for 1 do 
siot believe in a created personal devil, and hence the idea 
of taking him to heaven is out of the question. When 
our friend will prove that he is a created being, then it will 
be time to talk about the damnation or salvation of the 
devil. But the question is not whether the devil is a crea- 
ture with head and horns, and all the other appendages 
necessary, or whether he be a mere personification of e- 
vil — but will the devil and his works be destroved? Or 
will they exist to all eternity? I adduced proof to show 
that the devil, whatever might be his nature, shall be de- 
stroyed with all his works, and consequently that no one 
could be troubled by him more, and find him in the way of 
their final redemption. Now why does not our friend 
come up like a soldier of the cross, well equipt for war, 
and take hold of these passages, and show, if he can, that 



ON UNIVERSALISM. 303 

they do not prove the destruction of the devil and his 
works. 

Again: the gentleman tells us that Samuel and several 
others judged Israel. Well, this is all true. But what 
bearing has this on the question whether the judgment of 
God is in this world, or in the eternal world? 1 could 
not see his object in citing these cases. There is no par- 
allelism or comparison to be instituted between the judg- 
ment administered by man, and the judgment of God me- 
ted out in this world. Would he have us believe that the 
judgment of God is as fallible as that of mortal man? Per- 
haps he can give us more light on this, 

Again: my friend says when he cannot make revenue 
without making epithets and charges upon our system, he 
will abandon his business. Well, I thought he began to 
get tired of charging infidelity and licentiousness upon 
our system, without sustaining any of them. [Mr. Pow 
er here stated that he was misrepresented.] 1 think he 
made this assertion, verbatim; and I call for an explana- 
tion, if I am not right here. [Mr. Power explained — "I 
observed, if I could not support my system without raising 
revenue on the sympathies and prejudices of the people, I 
would abandon my business, and not endeavor to support 
it. And in reference to the system, I intended to prove all 
I stated, by Mr. Doolittle himself] Well, this is buta vir- 
tual assent to what I have said. I have repelled the 
charges; and in reference to one important charge, which 
1 pronounced slanderous and false, I have given him over 
into the hands of our friend Loring, who will in due sea- 
son do justice to the matter. 

The next statement I notice in order, is: he says he has 
quoted some ten or fifteen texts as proof of a judgment in 
a future world, which I have not noticed. Now ] deny 
the correctness of this statement. I stand pledged to no- 
tice every proof text that has any bearing on the subject. 
And I have noticed every text that he has quoted to prove 
a judgment in a future world, except some in the last 
speech, which I have not had time to notice. I have 
weighed them all in the balance, and proved that this uni- 
versal judgment on the part of God, was to transpire in 



394 a discussion 

this world, and that there was no proof of its'being in & 
future world; and in due time I shall sum up this proof. 

The next thing I notice, is my friend's curious comment 
on Matth. xvi. 27, 28, which reminded me that the sign 
for all kinds of twisting and turning was over his door for 
a certainty. He tried to do away the force of clear and 
positive testimony which fixes the time of the judgment. 

If I loose sight of the position taken by my friend, in 
explaining this away, I hope he will correct me. I wish 
to have you bear in mind what i3 asserted in this text. — - 
1st. He asserts, " The Son of man shall come in the glory 
of his Father, with his angels.' 9 2d. He tells us what he 
will do when he comes in this manner — " and then he 
shall reward every man according to his works." 3d. 
He tells us, when this shall take place, " Verily I say unto 
you, there be some standing here which shall not taste of 
Heath, till they see the Son of man coming in his king- 
dom." Now precisely the same event is referred to in 
Matth, xxiv. 29, 30. "Immediately after the tribulation 
of those days, shall the sun be darkened, and the moon 
shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from 
heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken; 
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in hea- 
ven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and 
they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of hea- 
ven with power and great glory." Now in reference to 
this event, the Savior adds, " Verily I say unto you, this 
generation shall not pass away till all these things be ful* 
filled. " But our friend Power tells you that the genera* 
lion here has reference to moral character, and not to a 
class of individuals, or generation of men. He says it re- 
fers to the righteous. That he is wrong here I will now 
prove. The Savior has reference here to his coming to 
punish the Jews — to the destruction of Jerusalem by Ti- 
tus. Hence, in referring to the same event, in Matth. 
xxiii. 35, 36, he says, "That upon you may come all the 
righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of 
righteous Abel, unto the blood of Zacharias, son of Bara- 
chias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. 
Verily, I say unto you, All these things shall come upon 



ON UNIVERSALISM. 305 

this generation,-' — and then expresses in most pathetic 
language his grief that Jerusalem is to be thus desolated., 
In both or all of these cases, you see he is speaking of the 
same event, for he says, " this generation shall not pass 
till all these things be fulfilled. 4 " Now, my friends, I want 
you to judge who is in the right, in regard to the time of 
this coming, the nature of the judgment, and what is meant 
by the term generation. I want you to judge rightly of 
the reasonableness and consistency of our friend's inter- 
pretation, in order to do away with the force of the text. 

Again: I notice Eccl. xii. 14. " For God shall bring 
every work into judgment, with every secret thing, wheth- 
er it be good or whether it be evil.' 9 We have no issue 
here — we believe that every work will be brought into 
judgment. 

Again: Matth. xii. 3o. "But I say unto you, that 
every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give ac- 
count, thereof in the day of judgment ." We are not at is- 
sue here either. And mark, this does not prove that the 
judgment is in the future world, and that it will result in 
the endless perdition of a great portion of our race. 

Now we come to what our friend considers the great 
desideratum, the winding up of the whole : thing. He tells 
you, " now we are coming to the conclusion of the matter, 
the immortal destiny of the human race." Now I intend 
to notice this text most thoroughly, as I will every other 
text he will adduce, that has a bearing on this great sub- 
ject. I want this congregation to be the witnesses wheth- 
er I examine it closely or not. My friend quoted Matth. 
xxv. 34, 41, 43. The last verse contains the substance 
of the whole point at issue. " And these shall go away 
into everlasting punishment ; but the righteous into life 
eternal. Now, my friends, we take the position that this 
text has no reference to the condition of man in the im- 
mortal state of existence. Our friend says it has. Which 
is right ? If he is right, I am wrong; if I am right, he is 
wrong, for we are directly opposite. Now for the testi- 
mony. This xxvth and the xxivth chapter of Matth. 
are a continued and connected conversation, commencing 
in the xxiii chapter, and referring to the same period of 

28 



306 A DISCUSSION 

time for their fulfillment, embracing circumstances and 
events which were all to transpire during the existence of 
the generation of men then living on the earth. In the 
last part of the xxiii chapter, and in the xxiv, Christ 
speaks of the civil polity of the Jews, the close of the legal 
dispensation, and the destruction of Jerusalem, and the 
scattering of the Jews through all the nations of the earth. 
The opening of the 25th chapter commences with the ad- 
verb then. After the Savior gets through with a state- 
ment of the events that were to transpire — the destruc- 
tion of Jerusalem, &c, he changes the conversation, and 
gives a statement of the situation, or condition, of his king- 
dom token those events should take place. " Then shall 
the kingdom of heaven,'" &c. By the kingdom of heaven 
here, we understand the Gospel kingdom, which Jesus 
Christ had set up according to the prophecy of Daniel, 
and which, as we design to show, has no reference to the 
condition of man in an immortal state of existence. 

[Time expired. 

[mr, power's SIXTEENTH srEECH.] 

Gentlemen Judges and the Congregation, — We have but 
a few remarks to make on Mr. D's. last speech, before call- 
ing your attention to the all-important subject of man's 
future changeless and eternal destiny. 

First, in reference to my pledge to perform the funeral 
services of Univcrsalism before 1 leave this village. I will 
correct the mistake into which he has fallen, by giving you 
the facts in the case. I charged Universal ism with main- 
taining certain positions, and then in strong but respectful 
language challenged Mr. D. or any of his friends to deny 
it. Mr. Loring said he would accept it. And at a subse- 
quent time he arose and said, if he did not prove the charge 
false, he would abandon the corrupt system, and would dig 
its grave. And 1 replied that 1 would stay and preach 
its funeral. 

One remark more. It has not escaped the observation 
of this respected congregation, that there has been an ef- 
fort made this afternoon, to get up a kind of an excitement 
to throw us off from the point in debate. 



ON UNIVERSALIS*!. 307 

[An allusion is mstdehere to some remarks that were 
made before commencing the debate this afternoon. Some 
things transpired on several occasions and remarks were 
made which created a little confusion at the time, which 
have not been noticed in this report.] 

But this is not alarming to me at all. Such things arc 
common among the advocates of Univcrsalism. There is 
but one other movement to be tried and then their skill will 
be exhausted, i.e. after the discussion is closed they will 
most likely say there have been so many converts made du- 
ring the discussion. The remedy for this is, for our friends 
here to require the reading of their names. 

A word on his remarks with reference to the devil, and 
the character of Jesus Christ. He stated that there is no 
devil separate and apart from the constitution of human 
nature. That Jesus Christ took upon himself human na- 
ture, and that his purity consisted in not yielding to the 
temptation of the devil, or his depraved human nature. 
Confirming my statement that his system makes Christ a 
depraved being. But he says Christ did not yield to this 
corrupt nature and this was his virtue. 

His remarks on Pvlatth. xvi, 27, 23. We remind you a- 
gain that any interpretation of the word of God that con- 
tradicts matter of facts is false and should be rejected. We 
maintained that the 27th verse announces things that have 
never taken place. And to interpret this so as to have it 
apply to any thing past is to contradict matter of fact. 
Has Jesus Christ ever come in the glory of his Father with 
his angels and rewarded every man according to his works? 
Never. Consequently it is yet future. The next verse 
says that some who heard him, should not taste death till 
they saw him coming in his kingdom. But he does not say 
to reward every man according to his works. He was 
coming in his spiritual kingdom. This was in perfect ac- 
cordance with matter of fact. And any other interpreta- 
tion would contradict stubborn fact^. It is no where said, 
that. Jesus Christ would come in the glory of his Father 
with his angels to reward every man according to his 
works, during the life-time of any to whom he was speak- 



308 a discussion 

We affirm again, that the term generation is used in the 
Scriptures to denote moral character. "Ye generations 
of vipers" referring to their wicked moral character. 
This generation extends through the whole history of man. 
It is sometimes used to denote a whole race of men, as the 
descendants of Abraham, and so of other nations. The 
history of the Jews for the last 1800 years gives evidence 
that they will not pass away till all this is brought to pass, 
though they will be converted to Christ. Then this com- 
ing of Jesus Christ is to be literal. It is not limited to the 
lifetime of any individual, but is characterized by the term 
generation which means moral character or a race which 
will exist to the end of time, when Christ shall appear in 
the manner described. 

Now we resume the argument. We have shown you the 
absurdity connected with a progressive final judgment 
and retribution in this world. We have shown that the 
judgment involves circumstances and takes into account 
scenes that have never transpired in the history of our 
race, and if the Bible is a true record, they must take place 
yet in the future. We have shown also that Christs com- 
ing to judge the world is to be as literal and visible as his 
ascension into heaven, and this is to take place before the 
eyes of the whole world. And also when this takes place 
the visible heavens shall pass away and the earth be de- 
solved with fire, the dead shall be raised, and the living- 
changed, and the whole race of intelligent beings, good 
and bad are to appear before the visible literal throne of the 
infinite Judge, there to be judged and receive their final 
doom for eternity according to their deeds in this world. 

For a more detailed account of this scene we refer you 
to Matth. xxv, commencing at the 31st verse. Indulge m 
while we say to this dying congregation, that we are all 
deeply and equally concerned in this. subject. Whatever 
may be your personal feelings or views, this subject in- 
volves your happiness not only in this brief state of exist- 
once but to all eternity. You may cast a veil over the 
truth now, but the future will reveal the fact and you will 
see the result of your decision on this question. Now read 
this description in Matthew, and see if the world has ever 



on uxiversalism. 309 

witnessed those scenes. The gentleman referred to the 
destruction of Jerusalem by the Roman army, for the ful- 
fillment of this scene. Were the Roman soldiers the holy 
angels that were to come with Jesus Christ ? All nations 
shail be gathered before him. This includes every nation 
that ever has existed or ever will exist. The word all 
here cannot be restricted. The infinite God has not re- 
stricted it; and the circumstances of the case cannot re- 
strict it. "And he shall separate them one from another," 
not as nations but as individuals, setting the good on his 
right hand and the bad on his left hand. He goes on to 
specify a whole catalogue of christian duties, and to notice 
the moral state of the heart of men and women individually. 
Many of them are benevolent and charitable, and others 
are just the opposite or are hypocritical. All these states 
of heart are noticed in the final account and ail are re- 
warded accordingly. No one ever thought, and the Bible 
never recognizes such a thing, as asking a nation if it 
visited any one in prison or administered to the wants of 
the sick, or did any such thing. It would be absurd to 
think of such a thing. These things belong to individ- 
uals and not to nations. Then, the things described here 
involve the interests of every individual of our race, and 
-:cich one of us will be personally and eternally involved 
in the decision made at the judgment here described. The 
line 01 distinction between the good and the bad will be 
brought to bear on each one of us. Our final destiny will 
he fixed according to our moral character here. If we 
are found on the side of the impenitent, the bad, we shall 
go away into everlasting punishment. But if we are so 
happy as to have made our peace with God here, and are 
included among the righteous, we shall go into life eternal. 
And life eternal you will mark, is the highest blessing that 
can be bestowed upon man or that is promised in the Bible. 
And another thing you observe that the punishment threat- 
ened to the wicked will endure just as long as the blessings 
of the righteous. If you restrict the duration of one, you 
must restrict the duration of the other. The same lan- 
guage too is used to denote the duration of the Divine exist- 
ence. And there is just as much probability, as far as the 

26* 



A DISCUSSION 

language is concerned, that He will cease to exist as tftfe 
the punishment of the wicked will cease The very same- 
argument that would terminate the punishment of the 
wicked, would prove that the Divine Being would cease 
to exist. 

We cite some additional proof that the very same 
language that is used to represent the condition of the fin- 
ally impenitent in the future world, is used to denote the 
eternity of the blessedness of the righteous in heaven. 
The text already quoted Matth. xxv, 46, is in point. Here 
the same word used to denote the duration of the life of the 
righteous, is the word used to denote the duration of the 
punishment of the wicked. And on this text we have the 
celebrated Dr. Clarke in our favor. Again, Luke xvi, 9, 
"And 1 say unto you, make to yourselves friends of the 
mammon of unrighteousness; that when ye fail, they may 
receive you into everlasting habitations. " Again, 2 Cor. 
iv, 17, 18. "For our light affliction, which is but for a 
moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal 
weight of glory. While we look not at the things which 
are seen, but at the things which are not seen 2 for the 
things which are seen are temporal ; but the things which 
are not seen are eternal." Chapt. v, 1st verse. "For we 
know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were 
dissolved, we have a building of God, a house not made 
with hands, eternal in. the heavens. 5 ' We might multiply 
this proof, but forbear. 

Now the very same language is used with reference to 
the finally impenitent. We refer you again to the lang- 
uage of our Lord to the blasphemer against the Holy 
Ghost. The blasphemer is threatened with eternal dam- 
nation. Again, 2 Thess, i, 9, "Who shall be punished 
with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, 
and from the glory of his power." And mark this is con- 
nected with the raising the dead and changing the living. 
Also, Jude 6, 7. "And the angels which kept not their first 
estate, but left their own habitation, he has reserved in 
everlasting chains, under darkness, unto the judgment of 
the great day. Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the 
cities, about them,, in like manner giving themselves over 



ON UNIVERSALISM. 311 

orriicatioa, and going after strange flesh, are set forth 
for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire." 

Now you see that the same ianguage that is used to ex- 
press the du ration of the happiness of the righteous in 
heaven, and the duration of the existence of God is used 
to express the duration of the punishment of the wicked. 
After the burning of the visible world, after the resurrec- 
tion of the dead and the changing of the living, after the 
assembling of all nations at the bar of God, after the case 
of every individual is decided according to his moral char- 
acter, after all this, the unholy are to go away into ever- 
lasting punishment, are described as being eternally ban- 
ished from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of 
his power, and cast into hell where their worm dieth not 
and their fire is not quenched. Now the great Jehovah 
that inspired this Book either used the best language in 
describing the condition of man in the future worid or He 
did not. To say that He erred in the use and application 
of language in reference to man's eternal destiny is blas- 
phemous. Then we have to admit that He has used the 
best language, both in regard to the reward of the right- 
eous and the punishment of the wicked. But the very 
same language thai is used to describe the duration of the 
peace of the righteous in the future world is used to des- 
cribe the duration of the misery of the wicked in the im- 
mortal state. Both are to continue eternally, everlasting- 
ly, forever and ever. If the gentleman says there are 
other term.? more expressive of endless duration, than the. 
language here used, we have only to say, that this would 
be to charge the Almighty with a want of wisdom in using 
the language He has employed. But whether He has used 
the best language or not, He has used the same language 
to express the duration of the punishment of the wicked 
that He has used to express the duration of the peace of 
the righteous in the immortal state, and the duration of 
His own existence. [Time expired. 



312; 



A DISCUSSION 



[mr. doolittle^s sixteenth reply.] 

I will now, my friends, in connection with a passing no- 
tice of some of our opponent's statements, resume my ar- 
gument, showing that Matth. 25th. has no reference to 
man's immortal state of being, and will show that the e- 
vents spoken of in that chapter have already taken place. 
In proof of this, we refer you to Matth. xvi. 27, 23, and 
Matth. xxiv. 29 — 34, which fixes specifically the time of 
Christ's coming in the glory of the Father, with the holy 
angels, to reward everyone according. to his works, to 
the lifetime of some of those he was then addressing, and 
to the generation of men that then lived upon the earth. 
And as further proof, 1 will quote Matth. x. 23. "But 
when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another; 
for verily I say unto you, ye shall not have gone over all 
the cities of Israel till the Son of man be come." This 
language, you see, is explicit, Christ should come dur- 
ing the life-time of his disciples. It was to be in the life- 
time of that sinful and adulterous generation that were 
then on the earth, to whom Christ said, " Ye serpents, ye 
generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of 
hell," (Gehenna, as it is in the original,) and upon whom 
Christ said should come all the righteous blood shed upon 
the earth, from righteous Able unto the blood of Zachari- 
as, whom they slew — that all should come on that gener- 
ation for their wickedness. And so it did come on them 
at Chrises coming, in the manner described. 

Let us now notice the results of this judgment. \ told 
you, in a former speech, that the rewards spoken of in the 
latter part of the 23d, and through the 24th and 25th 
chapters of Matth., were all described in one continued 
conversation. In the first two of these chapters, Christ is 
speaking of the destruction of Jerusalem, and the disper- 
sion of the Jewish nation. And he opens the 24th chapter,- 
which continues the conversation, with the adverb then. 
When the events he has been speaking of shall take place, 
then his kingdom, the Gospel kingdom, the kingdom of 
heaven, shall be likened unto ten virgins, &c. lie goes* 



ON UNIVERSALI3M. 313 

on to describe the state of his kingdom at the time ; first, 
by the parable of the ten virgins; secondly, by the para- 
ble of the talents; and thirdly, by the parable of the sheep 
and the goats. But this language is to be understood fig- 
uratively, and not literally. If it be understood literally, 
then literal sheep are to be placed on the right band of 
the Son of God, and Jiteral goats on his left; But our 
friend will not contend for this, we presume. 

But I wish you to mark how this scene opens. " When 
the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy 
angels with him, //k/? shall he sit upon the throne of his 
glory." Now when was this coming? We have already 
shown conclusively that this coming was to take place du- 
ring the lifetime of some he was then addressing, during 
the life-time of the generation of man then on the earth. 

Christ refers here to his coming to show the condition 
of his followers in that stage of his mediatorial kingdom, 
which he had set up in the earth. " He shall sit upon the 
throne of his glory;" that is, upon his mediatorial throne ;, 
•" And before him shall be gathered ail nations." By t| 
time the Gospel was preached to all nations then known * 
And they were to be separated as sheep and goats — the 
sheep on the right hand and the goats on the left. By the 
sheep, are meant those who received the Gospel. By the 
goats, are meant those who rejected the Gospel, and re- 
ceived the'- re of their judge. Then he says to 
the believers, "Come ye blessed of my Father, inherit the 
kingdom prepared from the foundation of the world;" L e. 
the Gospel kingdom ; and gave the reasons, <; For I was a- 
hungered, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty and ye gave 
me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: naked, and 
ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visaed me: L was in pris- 
on, and ye came unto me," for this invitation, to wit — that 
they had discharged their moral obligations to God and 
man. But the unbelievers were not thus favored, for they 
had neglected to do all these things which the blessed had 
done. Now, you see that this judgment was to transpire 
at the coming of Christ, during the life time of those who 
heard him, and retribution was meted out according to the 
rrood or the bad works of the creature. But we have 



3M A DISCUSSION 

proved from the word of God, that the salvation of men in 
the future world is not predicated on good works at all, 
but on the grace of God. But here, in the passage we are 
examining, the salvation and condemnation are predica- 
ted on good and bad works of men in this world, such as 
discharging, or neglecting to discharge, the obligations we 
owe to God and our fellow men. Now this cannot be our 
happiness in heaven, for this is never promised as a re- 
ward for our good deeds on earth ; it is predicated wholly 
on the grace of God. So, on the other hand, for neglect- 
ing these things, some were condemned; but this cannot 
be a final condemnation in the future world, for the same 
reason that rewards predicated on good works cannot 
mean the final happiness of the righteous. All this, then, 
can have no reference to a future world. 

When we get home to heaven, shall we be welcomed 
there because of our good deeds in this world! Will we 
feel that we merit heaven for our good works ? No ; we 
shall realize that our salvation is all of grace. Those 
who do good works here are happy as the reward of them, 
and the Savior calls them blessed. Those who believe on 
Christ are happy. "He that believeth on me halh ever- 
lasting life." But he that believeth not is condemned al- 
ready. The unbelieving Jews were sorely punished for 
their unbelief. But this punishment was not to reach in- 
to an immortal state of being. For their wickedness, the 
Jews were punisned as no nation was punished before, 
and never will be punished again, and this punishment has 
followed them to this day—but it is not to be endless, for 
Paul says, Rom, xi. 25 — f> For I would not, brethren, that 
you should be ignorant of this mystery, (lest ye be wise in 
your own conceits:) that blindness in part is happened to 
Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And 
so all Israel shall' be saved," dec. So the Apostle goes on 
to the end of the chapter, speaking of the abounding mer- 
cies of God, whose " gifts and callings are without repen- 
tance." So you see that these punishments are all to be 
taken away, together with their consequences. You will 
mark too. that the "fulness of the Gentiles" shall be 
brought in, which means the convers'on and salvation oL 



ON U3UVEUSALI€M. 315 

the whole Gentile world. Hence, you see that we have 
here both Jews and Gentiles, embracing all nations, the 
entire human race, as the subjects of salvation. Now, 
this puts a negative on our friend's position on his affirma- 
tive. 

But we have not quite done with the 25th chapter cf 
Matth, As it respects this everlasting punishment and the 
lije eternal. I have shown that "this is life eiernal, that 
they should know the only true God and Jesus Christ 
whom he has Gent." " He that helieveth on me hath ev- 
erlasting life." And we have shown that everlasting pun- 
isluneni was the punishment visited on the unbelieving 
Jews at the destruction of Jerusalem, and that it does not 
continue beyond this life. 

But one argument used by our friend, is the fact that 
the word used to denote the duration of the life of the righ- 
teous, is the same word used to express the duration of the 
punishment of the wicked, and that the punishment of the 
wicked is to exist as long as the happiness of the righteous. 
This argument supposes that sin is to exist as long as good 
exists. But good is opposed to sin, and He wills the re- 
demption of man from sin, and wills the destruction of sin 
and every principle of moral evil. 

Now, from the very object and design of punishment, and 
the nature of sin, we know that sin and its punishment 
cannot exist forever. The object of punishment is dis- 
ciplinary. It is inflicted for the good of the individual. — 
This is the true meaning of the original Greek word 
kolas in, translated punishment, Matth. xxv. 46, and it is 
used to represent the process of chastisement that trees 
undergo to make them more fruitful.* So, when used to 
represent punishment, it means that kind of punishment 
which results in good. This agrees with what Paul soys : 
ki For they," (our fathers in the flesh.) " hereby for a i'e.w 
days chastened us after their pleasure; but He," (cur Hea- 
venly Father,) * 4 for our profit, that we might be partakers 
of his holiness. Now no chastening for the present seem- 
eth to be joyous, but grievous ; nevertheless, it afterwards 
yieldeth the peaceable fruits of righteousness unto (hem 

* See Grotius and FufTendorf on the Text. 



■816 A DISC0SSIOH 

which are exercised thereby." Hence, you see the object 
of punishment. It is that we might become partakers of 
his holiness, and produce the peaceable fruits of righteous* 
ness, But this cannot be the case, if the definition our 
friend gives of punishment is correct; for there is no af« 
■ter wards to endless punishment. Such a punishment can 
never work such happy results as the Bible declares shall 
be the result of punishment; nor can it be inflicted for 
good. It is an immortal curse upon the un regenerated, 
evil without hope or remedy. But 1 am glad that PauPs 
doctrine is more merciful than our friend Power's; for he 
says that God chastises us that we might be partakers of 
his holiness, and enjoy the fruits of righteousness. 

Now, in conclusion, to prove the everlasting falsehood 
of endless punishment, I quote Lam. iii. 31 — 33. " For 
the Lord will not cast off forever: But though he cause 
grief, yet will he have compassion according to the multi- 
tude of his mercies. For he doth not afflict willingly, nor 
grieve the children of men. 5 ' Is. lvii. 16. "Fori will 
not contend forever, neither will I be always wroth: for 
the spirit should fail before me, and the souls which I have 
made." The Lord will not contend forever— that is, he 
will not punish forever, and he gives the reason, " for the 
spirit would fail before me; M it could not endure it forev- 
er. Now I would ask our friend if he can give you as 
good a reason why punishment should be endless, as the 
Almighty has given why it shall not be endless ? The 
next time I have the floor, I will give a critical examina- 
tion of the term everlasting. [Time expired. 

[mr. power's seventeenth speech.] 

Gentlemen Judges and this Serious Congregation .-I wi 
just observe on the gentleman's quotations from Lam. and 
Isa. that you will see in reading these texts in their connec- 
tion, they have a condition, and specify the character 
with whom God will not always contend. This is all we 
need say on them now. 

In reference to the punishment mentioned in Matt. xxv. 
46, being merely disciplinary, we will give a paragraph 



ON UNIVERSE LISM, 317 

from his favorite author Dr. Clarke on this passage. " And 
they shall go away into everlasting punishment" — "No 
appeal, no remedy to all eternity ! No end to the punish- 
ment of those whozo final impenitence manifests in them 
nn eternal will and desire to sin. By dying in a settled 
opposition to God they cast themselves into a necessity of 
continuing in an eternal aversion from him. But some are 
of opinion that this pun shment shall have an end : this is 
as likely as that the glory of the righteous shall have an 
end : for the same word is used to express the duration of 
the punishment, kolas in aionion, as is used to express the 
duration of the state of glory : zoen aionion. I have seen 
the best things that have been written in favor of the final 
redemption o^ damned spirits : but I never saw an answer 
to the argument against that doctrine, drawn from this 
verse, but what sound iearnir-g and criticism should be a- 
shamed to acknowledge. The original word aion, is cer- 
tainly to be taken here in its proper gramatical sense, 
continued being, aid on never ending. Some have gone 
a middle way, and think that the wicked shall be annihil- 
ated* This, I think, is contrary to the text : if they go in- 
to punishment they continue to exist : for that which ceases 
to be, ceases to suffer." 

The gentleman has resolved this whole scene described 
in this chapter, into things that transpired in the gospel 
kingdom about the time Jerusalem was destroyed. Now 
this interpretation contradicts common sense and matters 
of fact. That a period has ever transpired when God 
gathered all nations before Him and separated them as here 
described, no one can believe. It contradicts matters of 
fact. Hence we are compelled to reject the interpreta- 
tion. 

His remarks relative to salvation by works are equally 
feeble with his other observations on the text. It is all 
mere assumption that the salvation spoken of in this text 
is a salvation by works or merit. And we have never 
maintained that man is saved by the merit of works. But 
works of faith and love are a condition which God has made 
on the observence of which, man may obtain eternal life 
or happiness. No one can have salvation in the future 

2? 



3f8 a DiscrjssicrT 

world without fulfilling this condition. But the fact trial mar* 
enters upon eternal life by fulfilling this condition does' 
not imply that he is saved by the merit of Ids g cod works. 

His idea that going into life eternal is entering the gos- 
pel kingdom bears its own refutation on its face. For it 
is saying in reference to believers — good people who are 
already saved, and that" need no salvation, the gospel king- 
dom comes in and saves them ! ! This is an absurdity. — 
Just the opposite is t!,e truth. The gospel comes to men 
in their sins and leads them to repentance and saves them. 

We have adduced 5 , under the several heads of the argu- 
ment, specimens of divine testimony, abridging as much a3 
We could conveniently, and will now close the proof on 
our affirmative, and leave" t Lie senile man to examine them? 
as he wishes. 

With this statement we will now redeem our pledge, to ! 
examine the proof texts cS our respondent, that he kept 
back while on his affirmative. We have before adverted' 
to the reasons of this strange course, but make no complaint 
on this head. He said he had many texts to bring, and we as- 
sured him when he would info i*m us that he had got through 
with them, we would meet them all, but he has not given 
us the information and we now turn aside to meet ail he 
has brought. 

You will recollect that On Saturday we used 'he texts — 
"He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life, and he 
that believeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath 
of God abideth <n him."' u And he said unto them, Go ye 
into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 
lie that believeth and' is baptized shall be saved; but he 
that believeth not shall be damned. 7 ' And showed that a 
man dying in his sins, dies with the wrath of God abiding 
on him, and that it is then impossible for him ever to be- 
lieve or exercise gospel faith in Christ; for in the future 
world all is knowledge and sight and there is no room for, 
saving gospel faith there. We also proved that faith which 
♦•Works by love and purifies the heart." is the only con* 
dition by which the sinner can avoid the miseries of hel, 
and secure heaven . And we now remark on this point, tha; 
God has either foflndden man's faith and holiness as i\ 



ON CttnriRfiLALlSM, 3 10 

rendition of his salvation in heaven, or he is perfectly in- 
different in regard to faith, or he commands faith and holi- 
ness a? a condition of heaven. The gentleman will not 
.say He has forbidden faith, nor that lie is indifferent to it. 

The only alternative then is to admit that He commands 
faith as a condition of salvation in heaven. But he gave 
us a comment en the gospel mission. He says that the 
evidence that a man is a believer consists and will consist 
through all limein the miracles that he may perform. — 
But it would follow from his reasoning, either, that the 
gospel is not to he preached at all now, because the preach- 
er cannot work mira re are no true believ- 
ers in the world at this day. But this contradicts the 
Savior, who makes the gospel mission perpetual and uni- 
versal. This is its general character. But when first 
published it had a peculiar characteristic— it was charac- 
terized by miracles. Jesus Christ wrought many mtr- 
acles and so did his apostles until the gospel system was 
fully established and demonstrated to be divine. It was 
.necessary in the first stage of the gospel kingdom that 
these external evidence? of its divinity should accompany 
it. But as soon as it was fully confirmed to be of God. 
these external evidences ceased, hut its spiritual power to 
convert and save the soul remained and v ill to the end of 
time. So much for the speech based on this passage. 

And we now state that the texts the gentleman has ad- 
duced from Ps., Lam.. lsa* and iron every other source, 
cannot sustain his ailirmaive, — the purpose for which he 
adduced them. We put them all together in a mass; and 
theoniy question .on them is this, is his interpretation, by 
which he i to make them sustain his system, cor- 

rect ? We reply that any interpretation of Scripture that 
virtually rejects Jesus Christ as the Savior by denying 
that He saves men from the punishment of sin in the future 
world, from the punishment of sin in this world, and 
from the practice of sin in this world, and that 
attaches natural and human depravity to Jesus Christ, is 
a false interpretation of the word of God, and as such 
uld be rejected entirely. Now, the gentleman has said 
• Jesus Christ by .all he has done and suffered for ou/ 



320 A DISCUSSION 

jace, does not save men from punishment in the future 
world, or in this world. And we have shown that He does 
not save all men from the practice of sin in this world : 
for men live and die in all -manner of sin, — breath their 
last breath in the act of crime and in the blackest Atheism. 
Hence his interpretation of these Scriptures must be utter- 
ly false. 

Here we remind you of the charge of infidelity and li- 
centiousness in Universalism. And that we would prove 
it by Mr. Doolittle. You recollect I asked him if Jesus 
Christ by any thing he has done or suffered for our race, 
saves man from the danger of punishment in the future 
world? He answered in the negative. Again, if Christ 
saves men from the punishment of sin in this world ? His 
answer was "Every sinner is punished in this world ac- 
cording to the multitude and magnitude of his sins." We 
then referred to matter of fact to show that Christ does 
not save all men from the practice of sin in this world* 
Now the conclusion is inevitable. A system that will not al- 
low Jesus Christ to save men from the practice of sin, nor 
from the punishment of sin, rejects Jesus Christ as a Savior 
entirely. But the gentleman's system, according to bis own 
admissions, does this and goes farther, it deprives Christ of 
his Divinity, makes him a created and depraved being. — = 
Hence it is an infidel and licentious system. Mr. Doolittle 
is my witness. 

Again, any interpretation that will release man from 
ail moral obligation and restraint whatever, must be op- 
posed to all moral purity and to every precept of God's, 
word. But his interpretation and application of these 
texts, he has brought as proof of his affirmative, do release 
men from every particle of obligation in this world. It 
does indeed say to men, you will be more happy in this 
life if you live holy, and practice virtue, but if you chose 
you may live in violation of all the virtues, you may go 
on in all the iniquity you please and it makes no difference 
about your state in the future world, for you are absolutely 
sure of heaven in spite of all you can do. His interpreta- 
tion assures man, that it is impossible by the exertion of all 
his powers both physical and mental, through life anc 



ON UNIVERSALIS^ 321 

death, to commit crime enough to keep him out of heaven. 
The word of God can never sustain such a system. We 
know that we state the gentleman's position correctly. 
And he forgot, when he said he would hand me over into 
the hand of Mr. Loring, the fact that he had acknowledged 
the precise position, which his friend had pledged himself 
to show to be false. The position is, the system main- 
tains that a man cannot commit sin enough in life or in 
death to keep him out of heaven. We know the Bihle 
maintains no such system. But he has brought these pass- 
ages to prove such a system. Therefore they afford him 
no possible support. In these remarks we have rescued 
them from such a miserable perversion. 

We now call the attention of the gentleman to his true 
position. You will recollect he set out at the commence- 
ment, in proof of the holiness and happiness of the entire 
human race, in a state of immortality, (for we are now 
glancing at his affirmative proof which he held back 
when on that point,) with the argument from the resur- 
rection. His strong ground was, that all will be changed 
and fitted for heaven in the resurrection. He afterwards 
acknowledged that many go into the future world unholy, 
and he admitted they could not enter heaven unholy, 
and that if men are unholy they must be unhappy. He 
likewise admitted that persons are in a conscious state of 
existence from death till the resurrection. Thus far he 
came in answer to my interrogations. Now you see his 
true attitude is to leave them in misery, from death till 
the resurrection, So he really is the witness by which 
we have proved future punishment. But he begged leave 
to be excused from answering our question, whether those 
that have gone into the future world in sin were miserable 
till the resurrection; and, seeing the difficulty, he under- 
took to change his position on the point. 

Now any interpretation of scripture that will put a man 
into such an attitude — that makes him contradict himself, 
by admitting that millions are suffering in the future 
world, and must suffer from death till the resurrection, and 
yet denies ail punishment in the future world, must be a 
perversion of the word of God — throwing the word of God 

27* 



322 A. DISCUSSION 

into utter confusion, and we are compelled to reject it &s 
infidel and licentious, from centre lo circumference. 

Having adduced sufficient proof on our affirmative, ex- 
amined all his proofs, and fully refuted his positions, we 
now await the gentleman's pleasure with regard to mak- 
ing his closing speech. [ Time expired. 

[MR. DOOLITTLE's SEVENTEENTH REPLY;] 

I now proceed to notice some proof texts of my friend, 
lest he should say 1 was not willing to notice them all, — 
You recollect he quoted Dr* Clarke on Matth. xxv, 46, 
Now we brought forward Dr. Clarke on some proof texts 
in his expositions, of which he teaches the doctrine of the 
ultimate holiness and happiness of all men as strongly as 
it can be taught. As a specimen I gave you his remarks 
on Rom. v. 21, in which the doctrine of universal salva- 
tion is taught in as strong terms as it is possible to ex- 
press it. Among others equally strong, and made to in- 
elude the whole race of man, he says, "Thus we find 
that the. salvation from sin here, is as extensive and com- 
plete, as the guilt and contamination of sin; death is con~ 
quered, he'll disappointed, the devil confounded, and sin to- 
tally destroyed^ 

Now, because he gives another doctrine on Matth. 
xxv, it doos not weaken my argument at all. I showed 
you conclusively that that chapter has reference entirely 
to this world; that the events described were all fulfilled. 
I showed you that the object and design of punishment, 
from its very nature, precludes the idea of its being fu- 
ture, and then to refute forever our friend^s position, I 
quoted the declarations of Jehovah, **I- will not contend for 
ever, neither will 1 be always wroth; for the spirit should 
fail before me, and the souls which I have made." Then 
I said if he would give as good a reason why God should 
contend and punish forever as Jehovah has that he will 
not, I would then admit he had sustained his position. I 
likewise quoted from Lam. iii. 31 — 33, to show that the 
Lord does not afflict willingly, and that he will not cast 
off for ever. And though he cause grief for a time, He 



ON UNIVERSALIS^. 32$ 

will have compassion according to the multitude of His 
mercies. These texts prove that God will not punish any 
one endlessly. 

I have shown that the object of punishment is discipli- 
nary, and therefore cannot be endless. Many contend 
that the punishment spoken of in Matth. xxv. 46, is end- 
less. But why is it contended that it is endless? Because 
the term everlasting is connected with it. But does this 
prove that it is endless? No. No term in the Bible is 
used with more latitude of meaning than this term. We 
can only determine the length of time denoted by the term 
everlasting, by the nature and duration of the thing with 
which it is connected. "The everlasting hills,' 5 will not 
exist eternally, but as long as the earth exists. Some of 
the statutes of Moses were called everlasting, but they 
passed away, so with many things termed everlasting, 
they have passed away. So where there is nothing in 
the nature of the thing with which it is connected to make 
it eternal, it must be understood in a limited sense. Here r 
in this case, we find it connected with punishment. Now 
punishment is for the good of those punished, and this 
cannot be endiess; for it is designed to produce the peace- 
able fruits of righteousness. Hence, endless punishment 
is at war with the nature and design of punishment. It 
therefore must be understood in a limited sense. This 
settles the question. 

Our friend quoted 2d Thes. i. 7 — 10, which contains 
this. "Who shall be punished with everlasting destruc- 
tion, from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory 
of his power." Now does our friend understand that this 
means, literally, that any shall be punished with everlast- 
ing destruction from the presence of the Lord? If it 
means this, then it proves annihilation, and not endless 
jmnishmsnt. For where can the individual be in the uni- 
verse, and not be in the presence of the Lord? Says the 
Psalmist, Psa. cxxxix. 7, 8, "Whither shall I go ' from- 
thy Spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence? If 
1 ascend up into heaven, thou art there; if I make my bed 
in hell, behold, thou art there." 

If our friend Power now wishes to close this discussion 



324 A DISCUSSION 

and sum up the whole argument before the people, I have 
no objection. 

[mr. power's eighteenth speech.] 

Gentlemen. — A few words in reply to my friend's last 
speech. 

You recollect his insinuation that 1 was laboring under 
conviction. Of course if he is correct I am consummately 
hypocritical before you. If his system requires such a 
course of argumentation, it is only in accordance with 
what I have stated several times — it imposes a fearful 
task on its advocates. 

The first thing 1 notice is an assertion which he made 
and on which he rested the plausibility of his remarks. — - 
He says, God's punishment is all v disciplinary. This was 
his foundation and on this he built a regular sophism. 
That this position is absolutely false will be easily shown. 
Was the punishment of the antediluvian world reformatory? 
No. It placed them beyond the reach of reformation. Was 
the punishment of the Sodomites reformatory ? It placed 
them beyond the reach of all reform. So with other cases 
which have been mentioned, and thousands more which 
might be, the punishment was not disciplinary in any de- 
gree. No — the contrary is the truth. Hence his as- 
sumption is false. 

If he has assumed his position ignorantly, we presume 
you will not trust him as a prophet — -as he has assumed 
this character several times during this discussion. If he 
knew better, then tture may have baea a design to mis- 
lead in reference to his conclusion. 

In relation to Thess., respecting the "destruction from 
the presence of the Lord," &■?., he wanted to know whe- 
ther this is literal or figurative. He tried to make it ap- 
pear that it could not. be literal, for God is omnipotent. — 
But this language it both literal and figurative. The facts 
described are of such acnaracter that figurative language 
has to be employed. 

He endeavored to throw a plausibility around another 
assumption — that being banished from the presence of the 



ON UNIVERSALISM. 325 

Lord, and from the glory of his power, must mean being 
banished from the Temple of Jerusalem. We ask, to 
whom was the Apostle writing here? To the Jews of the 
metropolis? No. But. to the Gentiles, who, most likely? 
had never been in, or seen the Temple. He was writing 
to those living under another government, whose locality 
was quite remote from Jerusalem. And it is absurd to 
suppose that the Apostle would use such an argument to 
them. Now to such assertions as this the gentleman re- 
sorts to keep up appearances. 

One remark more, with reference to his criticism on the 
term everlasting. He says we can never determine the 
meaning of the term everlasting, by the objects with which 
it. is connected. But he says, punishment is not eternal, 
therefore the adjective everlasting cannot mean eternal or 
endless. Here again he has assumed (not proved) his 
premises. 

What is it with which the everlasting punishment is 
connected? It is the immortal and personal conscious- 
ness of the soul. Now if the soul, in its constitution and 
nature, is immortal, and endless in its existence, if it is. 
separated from the favor of God, which alone can make 
it happy, it necessarily suffers, and will endlessly suffer^ 
for it never can cease to exist. So, on. the gentleman's 
own rule of criticism on this term — that it continues as 
long as the existence of the object with which it is connec- 
ted — we show it to be endless. For the object of the pun- 
ishment is the immortal soul. This banishment of the 
soul from the favor of God, and its eternal misery in 
the future world, is the second death. 

[It was now too late to sum up this afternoon, and it was 
concluded to adjourn till morning. At which time Mr. 
Doolittle said he would occupy not more than five minutes 
in reply to the last speech, and then proceed to make his 
closing speech. In the morning, however, instead of five, 
he occupied twenty-five minutes, which occasioned con- 
siderable debate between the speakers, and led Mr. Power 
to claim the privilege of a reply, before they proceeded to 
make their closing speeches. Mr. Power's reply occupied 
twenty minutes.] 



&9d A DISCUSSION 

Wednesday, Aug. 6—9 o'clock, A. ML 
[mr. doolittle's eighteenth eeply.] 






Messrs. Moderators and the Audience. — You recollect [ 
said last evening that I would notice one or two passages 
of Scripture I had not noticed, and then proceed to sum up 
my arguments. 

The passage that I have not noticed is recorded in Jude 
7. "Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about 
them, in like manner giving themselves over to fornica- 
tion, and going after strange ilesh, are set forth for an ex- 
ample, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire." Our 
friend quoted this text as having reference to the condi- 
tion of man in the future world. I deny that it has any 
reference to an immortal state of existence. The Apostle 
is carrying his hearers back to the destruction of the cities 
of the plain on account of their great wickedness, stating 
the reason why those cities perished, and pointing to the 
monuments of ruin they presented, as a striking exhibi- 
lion of Gjd's judgments upon such a wicked people. But 
you will mark, it was in this world that they received 
those judgments, not in the future world. Now any thing 
set forth for the benefit of the living, must be something 
recognizable by the senses. But our friend's interpreta- 
tion would deprive us of this; for he places the scene in an. 
immortal state, where no mind can take cognizance of the 
condition of moral beings. The tire here has no refer- 
ence to a lake of literal tire and brimstone in the eternal 
world. Because it is called eternal fire does not prove 
that it never ceases. As I said, we must determine such 
terms by their use. They are used to express all periods 
of time, from three hours to an endless state of existence. 
Here the nature of the object or institution must decide 
the duration. "'I ne everlasting hills,' 1 we believe, will 
cease to be. So many things have ceased, which were 
siyled everlasting. Now we have said jhat this fire is 
connected with punishment; and, therefore, must be under" 



ON UINTVfiRSALlStt. 32? 

Stood in a limited sense. I have clearly shown that the 
declared object of punishment is for the benefit of the pun-* 
ished. And the moment you say God punishes a being 
without designing to do him good, you make it amount to 
revenge. Now the position I take is, no good can result 
from the endless punishment of any being. It is cruelty, 
not justice. However, there will be no such punishment. 
I proved to you that the punishment was disciplinary. I 
quoted from Paul, lie defines the object of our chastise- 
ment, fie says that u God chastises us for our profit, that 
we might be partakers of his holiness/' And afterwards 
he says, "It yieldeth the peaceable fruits of righte- 
ousness." I quoted from Isa. Ivii. 16. "For I will not 
contend for ever, neither will 1 be always wroth; for the 
spirit should fail before me, and the souls which I have 
made, &c." Lam. iii. 31— 33. "For the Lord will not 
castofT for ever, for though He cause grief, yet will he 
have compassion, according to the multitude of his mer- 
cies. For he doth not afflict willingly, nor grieve the 
children of men. n I contend, now, that these passages, if 
there were no other in the Bible, are sufficient to show 
that the object of the punishment is disciplinary; and con- 
sequently, it cannot be endless in duration. 

Bat I must notice a remark cur friend made on 2d 
Thes. i, T— 10, respecting the "everlasting destruction from 
the presence of the Lord." I said this text was parallel 
with Matth. xxv. 46, and showed that both had reference 
to the destruction of Jerusalem, and the banishment of the 
Jews from the Temple, &c. But my friend tried to make 
my position ridiculous, by saving the Apostle is writing 
to individuals at a great e(istanc6 from Jerusalem. But to 
show that my position is right, 1 will spend a little more 
time on this passage. 

If you will road several verses in connection here, 
vou will see that the church at Fhessaronica was ^reatlv 
persecuted, so that it was a righteous thing in God to come 
out in judgment against their persecutors. Now who 
were their most inveterate persecutors? The Jews. They 
had an inveterate hatred against the Messiah and all who 
believed in him, and they went through the whole coun- 



328 a BiscirssioN 

try persecuting the christians. Wherever the Apostles 
went they found some of the Jews-ready to persecute them. 

Now these persecutors were to be punished wherever 
they were found; whether they lived at Jerusalem or a 
thousand miles from the city. 

To show you that the Jews of this place were perse- 
cutors, I quote Acts xvii. 13. «*But when the Jews of 
Thessalonica had knowledge that the word of God was 
preached of Paul at Berea, they came thither also and 
stired up the people." 

Now the Apostle is speakingof these persecuting Jews, it 
is perfectly evident. The gentleman says it has no refer- 
ence to the Jews, but he must be mistaken. 

The Jews supposed the presence of God was particular- 
ly manifested in the Temple at Jerusalem. Hence, when 
they prayed they turned their faces towards Jerusalem. 
Now, when the Temple should be destroyed they would be 
driven from the presence of the Lord. The whole Jew- 
ish nation would be afflicted, whether they were in Jeru- 
salem or not, for the nation should be dispersed among all 
nations, and could no longer have a Temple to look to, in 
which was manifested the presence of the Lord; and they 
should become a reproach and a by-word among all na- 
tions, and should be abused and trodden down, even as 
they are at this day. But still I proved to you from Rom. 
xi. 25, 26, that this will not be endless, but after the full- 
ness of the Gentiles are brought in all Israel shall be saved. 

I have but one thing more to notice. The gentleman 
said his argument of endless punishment was drawn from 
the fact that the soul is immortal, and the soul will exist 
endlessly; therefore, the punishment may be endless. — 
Now this is one of the strongest positions I ever heard a 
man take, much less, a divine of the pretensions of our 
friend. On his position, all punishment designed for the 
soul, must be endless, and to talk of any kind of punish- 
ment of man being limited, is to talk nonsense. 

But this position is at war with the position that I have 
sustained from the Bibie, to wit: The design of punish- 
ment is disciplinary. God says he will not always be 
wroth, nor contend for ever, because the spirit should fail 



ONTJNIVERSALXSM. 329 

before him, and the souls which he had made. And you 
know I quoted, "Whither shall I go from thy Spirit? or 
whither shall I flee from thy presence? If I ascend up 
into heaven, thou art there; if I make my bed in hell, be- 
hold, thou art there. If I take the wings of the morning 
and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea, even there 
shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me." 
Hence, this text is not to be understood literally. This 
is a parallel text with Matth. xxv. 46. Mark this, and it 
refers to the national punishment of the Jews, and their 
banishment from the Temple worship. This destruction 
and punishment resulted in the destruction of the legal 
dispensation, and their dispersion among all nations. — 
The Jews, as a ration, were banished from the presence 
of the Lord in the Temple. But this punishment will not 
be endless, as we have shown. When the fullness of the 
Gentiles shall come in, then "all Israel shall be saved." 

With respect to Rev. xx, 12 — 15, in regard to the lake 
of fire and brimstone, &c. I occupied nearly thirty minutes 
yesterday in illustrating and showing that this is used in 
a figurative sense. This shows a process of purification, 
and not of damnation. All dross, and death, and hell 
shall be destroyed. Here the last enemy, death, shall be 
destroyed. It will result in the destruction of every prin- 
ciple of evil, and the purification of the whole human 
family. Then I say, as you can perceive, this text has no 
reference to punishment in an immortal state of existence. 

And I tell you now, as I have told you before, that our 
friend will not be able to sustain the affirmative of his 
question. And, my friends, if I had made as poor a de- 
fence of my cause, or any cause under heaven that I had 
espoused, as my friend has made here on his cause, I 
never would lift my voice in favor of it again. I would 
despair for ever of maintaining it. Not that he is not as 
capable as any other man, for he is; and I have given 
him the credit of this. But as I told you in the outset, 
though there are many things that may be proved from 
the Bible, there is one thing that never has and never can 
be proved from it, that is, the endless and hopeless suffer- 

28 



530 A DISCUSSION 

ing of any being that God has made. For this would de- 
feat the whole design of God — in creation. 

It is God's purpose to save all mankind, and in forming 
this purpose, Dr. Clarke will tell you he did not consult 
men, angels or devils. He purposed for his own glory to 
save all. And all the powers of heaven, earth, and hell, 
and all other powers combined, will never be able to de- 
feat the benevolent plan of God. It is true, the whole 
world fell into sin. But remember, a full remedy has 
been provided for sin, and this our friend has admitted. — 
He admits that Jesus Christ has atoned for the sins of the 
whole world, both original and actual. But he does not 
admit that all will receive the benefit of this atonement. 
Paul goes farther than our friend Power, he says, "That 
as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign? 
through righteousness, unto eternal life, by Jesus Christ 
our Lord." Here he teaches that the reign of grace shall 
be as extensive as the reign of sin, which is universal. 
And in view of this, Dr. Clarke shouts Uallaluiah! Amen, 
and Amen; and I called upon my friend to shout, but he 
did not shout aloud, nor even say amen without shouting. 
JNow I firmly believe, without saying another word for 
the benefit of our friend, that he is now laboring under 
conviction, and is now travailing in spiritual birth, and I 
hope he will have a safe and happy spiritual deliverance. 
I challenged our friend to give as good a reason why pun- 
ishment should be endless, as God has given to the contra- 
ry, but his reason has not been given. The issue on this 
is between him and Jehovah. And he says when an indi- 
vidual takes a position in opposition to Jehovah he must 
be wrong. Then let God be true, though every man, in- 
cluding our friend Power, be found a liar. 

One remark, and I clo.e this branch of the argument, 
i. e. that my leading position has been that this world, or 
the present, is a state of retribution. I shall refer to this 
in my closing speech. As farther proof of this position, 
I now quote Jer. xxiii. 5, 6. You will bear in mind that 
our friend has contended, which I have not denied, that 
God hath appointed a day in which he will judge the 
world in righteousness, and that that day I have contend- 



ON UKIVETISALISM. 



331 



was the Gospel clay, included the whole Mediatorial 
>]. I now b irard this testimony in addition, 

which I ha\ irked several days, hut have not had 

an opportunity to present it. '-Liehuld, ihe diiys come, 
h the Lord, that I will raise unto David a righteous 
Branch, and a King shall reign an ball ex- 

ecute judgment and justice in the earth. In his days 
Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely; and 
this is his name wherehv he shall 1, T1JE LORD 

OUR RIGH FEOUSNESS," Christ's reign, I again ol> 
serve, commences with th n> and co.i- 

. tinues I nd here the pro;,. i of Christ, 

Fie -reigns and I shall execute judgment and 

Dent, my friends, on my part, is atari end. 

SPEECH.] 

tiemen Moderators. — My friend's remarks were 
based principally on my quotation from the epistle of Jade, 
7th v. tnce 

In on the as- 

sui: . that all punishment in this world 

| iinary. This is an bat no man will make 

unl is in 

agonies of death and Hkel] 're. I asked the 

nan when . e, how the punishment of 

Reformation is ceasing 
10 do evil and I Iq well, taking up ti: 

ling the h iiingthe rial: ig God with 

all ' js^ atid living in 

the practical ; ail our . I asked him how 

es and n her sinners who were cut 

in a moment under the judgments < reform- 

. or how their punishment could have been disciplinary ] 

The gentleman knows that this is an absurdity that can 

scarcely have a parallel. 

He said the judgment of God fell on the Sodomites as a 
chastisement for their abominable wickedness — for he saw 
there could be no reformation. His argument is, they be- 



332 A DISCUSSION 

came so corrupt that they were too vile and degraded tex- 

live on the earth, so God removed them oft' to heaven 

Then his course of argument says to the wicked, if you- 
wish to gain heaven sooner than you otherwise would, all 
you have to do is to become such abominable sinners that 
you are not fit to live on earth, and God will take you to 
heaven. 

But to give it another gloss — for you see that my friend 
was greatly excited and confused, he says, they were set 
forth suffering the vengeance of eternal fire as an exam- 
ple to other nations. How, he asks, can any thing be set 
forth as an example unless it is a visible matter ? 

We ask the people of Laport whether they ever saw 
those cities ? They never have. Then how do they know 
those cities ever existed ? God's word tells them so. But 
this is only one item that God's word records, which we 
are required to believe. it says, that after those cities 
were desroyed, and all their inhabitants perished, their 
souls are suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. And. 
this example to us, rests on precisely the same evidence 
that the destruction of the cities does — the word of God. 
This is the ground on which our faith rests in regard to 
to this example of the souls of the Sodomites suffering the 
vengeance of eternal fire, under the administration of 
God's moral government. 

A word in reference to the gentleman's perversion of 
the doctrine he opposes, that it holds to a punishment ad- 
ministered for vengeance. For any punishment that does 
not have the good of the individual punished in view is, he 
says, a punishment for vengeance. Then he convicts all 
Judges on their bench, for it is a fact that no good accrues to 
the individual punished with death, and the judge has no 
idea that the punishment will do the culprit any good. — 
[Mr. Doolittle here said he was misrepresented, that his 
position was that any punishment, that was not designed 
for the good of the punished or of somebody else, was re- 
vengeful.] The substance is the same. And we add that 
the infinite Judge oi all the earth will do right. And when- 
ever he inflicts punishment either temporal or eterna* 
is right. 



ON UNIVERSALIS*!. 333 

On this passage in Judo, I have the authority of my 
friend's highly commended Dr. Clarke. He says, it both 
expresses the literal destruction of the inhabitants of the 
cities, and also the destiny of the soul in the future world 
where the punishment will be endless. 

On the quotation from Thcss. and "destruction from the 
presence of the Lord," — the gentleman tried to avoid if 
possible, or throw ofF the force of the absurd position in 
which he placed himself, viz. that the Apostle would ad- 
dress the church of Thessalonia, and endeavor to comfort 
them and have them rejoice notwithstanding their persecu- 
tion, for the time would come, at some future period, in 
which the Lotd would come and punish a class of sinners 
in Jerusalem at a great distance from them. The gentle- 
man sees the absurdity of such a position, and so tries to 
make it appear that it was the Jews at Thessalonica that 
were to be punished with the rest of their nation. BuUhe 
Apostle was not speaking about the Jews here. It was not 
the Jews that persecuted the church there at that time — and 
this can be shown from Paul himself. 1 Thess. ii. 14, 15, 
"For ye brethren, became the followers of the churches of 
Go J which in Judea are in Christ Jesus ; for ye also have 
suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they 
have of the Jews ; who both killed the Lord Jesus and their 
own prophets and have persecuted us ; and they please not 
God and are contrary to all men." Now if the gentleman 
wishes to say they were persecuted by the Jews he will con- 
tradict Paul, for he says they were persecuted by their own 
countrymen, the Gentiles. Paul says it has no reference to 
the Temple. For those to whom he was writing never wor- 
shipped in the Temple, and knew nothing about the pres- 
ence of the Lord being manifest in it. 

The gentleman's remarks with regard to the immortal- 
ity of the soul will come up appropiately in my review. 
We expected that he would be surprised at our position on. 
this point, because he and others have made our position 
for us here, which however we do not feel bound to take. 
They say we must find some local place, or hell, some place 
which we can show will never cease to be. But we have only 
to find, on the authority of the Bible, an immortal Spirit, un- 
28* 



334 A DISCUSSION 

holy and at enmity to God, and placed beyond the bounds 
of this probationary scene without the possibility of a 
change, and then we have endless misery or endless pun- 
ishment. 

[mr. doolittle's nineteenth, and closing speech.] 

Gentlemen Judges. — 1 will sum up my arguments as 
briefly as possible, and in as condensed point of view as I 
am able, in the order they have been adduced in the dis- 
cussion of the second question on the table. And, in do- 
ing so, I would claim your serious and candid attention. 
You will remember at the outset, and from time to time, 
during the discussion, I manifested a desire that you 
should pay due deference to the arguments produced. To 
let all arguments have their full weight, in favor of our 
position cr in favor of the position taken by our friend. 
The first position taken by Mr. Power, was this, that un- 
der the moral government of God, man is threatened, for 
his sins, with punishment or suffering that cannot be en- 
dured in the present world, and of necessity, must extend 
into the future world. In opposition to this position, I ad- 
duced first, the following argument or position: The pre- 
sent world is a state of retribution; rewards and punish- 
ments are meted out in this world according to merit and 
demerit. And, secondly, the judgment which 1 admit, is a 
universal judgment, resulting in rewarding all men accord- 
ing to their works, which, our friend said was all future, 
involving the endless destiny of the righteous and the 
wicked, I proved was in this world. In proof of the first 
position, my argument was, that the history of our race, 
the observation of every man, the experience of every ra- 
tional individual, and the Bible, and reason, all united to 
establish the fact that the present is a state of retribution, 
that the righteous are here rewarded according to their 
works, and the wicked punished according to their deeds. 
As farther proof from the Scripture, I quoted this text — 
"Behold, the righteous shall be recompensed in the earth, 
much more the wicked and the sinner. And moreover, I 
saw under the sun the place of judgment, that wickedness 



ON UNIVEHSALXSM. 335 

was there. I said in mine heart God shall judge the 
righteous and the wicked; for there is a time for every 
purpose and for every work." Says the Psalmist, "veri- 
ly there is a God that judgeth in the earth. Let the floods 
clap their hands, let the hills be joyful together before the 
Lord, for he comet h to judge the earth; with righteous- 
ness shall he judge the world, and the people with equity.^ 
Again: I proved the judgment commenced with Christ's 
Mediatorial reign and would continue to its close — that the 
day which God had appointed to judge the world in right- 
eousness by Jesus Christ, included the Mediatorial reign 
of Christ, and that before he gave up the kingdom to the 
Father that he might become all in all, judgment woull 
pass on all men. Hence, our Savior declares now is the 
judgment of this world, now shall the prince of this world 
be judged. And the prophet says of Christ, "He shall 
not fail nor be discouraged till he has set judgment in the 
earth. And the isles shall wait for his law." I proved 
that rewards were meted out to the righteous in the pres- 
ent life. My proofs were these: "Her (wisdom's) ways 
are ways of pleasantness, and all her paths are peace. 
And the work of righteousness is peace, and the effect of 
righteousness, quietness and assurance for ever. Great 
peace have all they that love thy law, and nothing shall 
offend them. But glory, honor, and peace to every one 
that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gen- 
tile. And on the other hand, I showed that, " Unto them 
who are contentious and do not obey the truth, but obey 
unrighteousness, indignation and anguish upon every soul 
of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first and also of the 
Gentile." " The way of the transgressor is hard. But 
the wicked are like the troubled sea, that cannot rest, 
whose waters cast up mire and dirt. There is no peace 
to the wicked." I showed from our own observation and 
experience, that virtue's prize is the soul's calm sunshine 
and the heartfelt joy. That the innocent, the upright and 
the good enter into rest; that they have the peace of God, 
which passeth all understanding; but that the wicked are 
full of trouble, and vexation, and anguish of soul, on ac^ 
count of their guilt, continually. 



335 A DISCUSSION 

Now, these were the arguments, and many more might 
have been adduced, to show that the present is a state of 
retribution; that rewards and punishments are meted out 
in this life according to the merit and demerit of each in- 
dividual. In addition to this, I adduced this passage — "Be 
not deceived; God is not mocked, for whatsoever a man 
soweth, that shall he also reap. For he that soweth to 
the flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that 
soweth to the spirit shall of the spirit reap life everlasting." 
My argument on this was, that a man reaps- his harvest in 
the same field in which he sows his seed. No one sows 
grain here, and reaps the harvest in Asia or Africa, but in 
the same field in which he sows, and the harvest will par- 
take of the nature of the seed sown. Hence I showed, ac- 
cording to the declaration of the Apostle here, that he that 
soweth in the flesh, shall of the flesh reap corruption in 
the flesh, and not out of it. He that soweth to the spirit 
shall of the spirit reap life everlasting. The fruit of the 
spirit consists of '• love, joy, long suffering, gentleness, 
goodness, faith, meakness, temperance. " 

u Against such there is no law." On the^other hand, 
the fruits of the flesh are, idolatry, hatred, variance, 
wrath, strife, seditions, murders, drunkenness, and such 
like. The retribution is all spoken of in this world. The 
christian will not sow to the spirit in the future world; he 
sows to the spirit in this world, and consequently he must 
reap the fruits of the spirit in this world— *-reap his har- 
vest in the field in which he sows his seed. The sinner 
will not sow to the flesh in the future world; he sows in 
this world, and consequently he must reap in this world. 
Our friend, you will remember, brought up various pass- 
ages of Scripture to show that we are all under the gov- 
ernment of God; held amenable to the judgment in an im- 
mortal state of existence. He relied much on the 25th of 
Matth. for his proof, but quoted in connection, from Cor. 
'•For we must all stand before the judgment seat of Christ, 
that every one may receive the things in his body accord- 
ing to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad." You 
remember I said this passage taught a universal judg- 
ment, and that all would be rewarded or punished accord- 



ON UNIVERSALISM. 



337 



ing to their deeds. But this judgment, I said, had refer- 
ence to the present, and not to the future world. This I 
showed was plain, from the language, (leaving out the 
words in italics, which obscure the sense,) that every one 
may receive the things in body according to that he hath 
done, &c. He is to receive in body, and not out of the 
body. [lence, the judgment must be in this world, and 
not in the future world. 

And in respect to the other proof texts, I challenged the 
gentleman, repeatedly, to fix his finger on one passage 
which asserted that there would be a judgment in the fu- 
ture world. Matth. xxv. 46, and a passage from Thess, 
were his strongest proofs. But do they prove his affirma- 
tive? No. They do not reach beyond the shores of mor- 
tality. This I showed in my argument. 

Again: I proved that God had a good design in punish- 
ing man, and that his punishments must be disciplinary , 
They must either benefit the punished, or be a benefit to 
others. But endless punishment cannot benefit any one. 
Hence, it is not founded in goodness, cannot be from God, 
and the doctrine must be false. Paul declares that God 
chastises for our profit, that we may be partakers of his 
holiness; and notwithstanding for the present it was gre- 
vious, yet afterwards it yieldeth the peaceable fruits of 
righteousness. And hence, from the very nature of pun- 
ishment, under the divine government of God, it must be 
limited, for it is intended to work out in all who are pun- 
ished, the peaceable fruits of righteousness. And God 
say?, "I will not contend forever: neither will I be always 
wroth, lest the spirit should fail before me, and the souls I 
have made." "For the Lord will not cast off forever, but 
though he cause grief, yet will he have compassion accor- 
ding to the multitude of his mercies, for he doth not af- 
flict willingly nor grieve the children of men." I told 
you that God's declaration that he would not cast off for- 
ever, nor contend forever, and our friend 1 s assertion that 
He would, were diametrically opposed, and one must be 
false. And the conclusion of my argument was, that we 
had better place confidence in God, than in the assertion 
af our friend Power. The position our friend took in cor*- 



S38 A DISCUSSION 

neection with these arguments, was, that men went out of 
this world unholy, in a stale of sin and unbelief, and inas- 
much as they were not punished in this world, and as there 
was no possibility of a change in the future world, they 
must of necessity remain in circumstances of misery for 
eternity. My reply to this was, that the best of men, of 
christians, and even our friend Power not excepted, would 
leave this world with some moral defilement attached to 
them; some small remains at least, and if some change for 
the better were not made at death, or after death, they 
would be eternally excluded from heaven and holiness in 
the future world; for nothing can enter therein the least 
defiled; and if this change could pass on men to a small 
degree, it could extend to any degree — for the arm of Jeho- 
vah is not shortened, that it cannot save, or that he cannot 
purify and make holy, in the future world, even the chief 
of sinners! 

You recollect 1 quoted from the Presbyterian Confession 
of Faith, which taught the doctrine that even the best 
christians might have some of this moral defilement about 
them to the latest period of their lives. Now, there must 
be some change in them for the better, or they could not 
enter heaven. Hence, the conclusion was, that as we 
were all in this condition, we must all rely on the mighty 
power of God, which would, as is promised, clothe us with 
incorruption, and glory, and honor, in the resurrection, 
and make us "equal unto the angels;'' as our Savior says, 
equal in purity and peace, and make us the "children of 
God, being children of the resurrection, and not subject to 
death any more," (or "death, the last enemy, shall be de- 
stroyed." Here, you recollect, the gentleman charged 
on our system repeatedly, that it held that the sinner 
could nor commit sin enough in this world to shut him out 
of heaven in the future world. But 1 showed, if he held 
that a man could become such a sinner that the infinite 
mercy of God could not save him, he was at issue with 
Paul. For he sa\ s, " This is a faithful saying, and wor- 
thy of ail acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the 
world to save sinners, of whom I am chief.'- And I prov- 
ed repeatedly, beyond the shadow of a doubt, that all men 



ON UNIVERSALIS!*!. 339 

will attain that world and the resurrection of the dead, 
and be clothed with honor, immortality and incorruption, 
and be equal unto the angels of God, and not subject to 
death any more. And consequently they v ould be holy 
and happy in heaven. All this I proved will be accom- 
plished through the free grace of God. And this purify- 
ing grace of God can be just as well imparted to the soul 
separate from the body, as it can in connection with it. — 
And if God sees lit to take his creatures out of the world 
in a state of sin, he does not at all change his character 
and conduct toward them in the spirit world. And in the 
article of death , or five minutes after, he can effect a 
change in the soul as well as before death. And I proved 
that all, in the end. would have this change from sin to 
holiness — all would be right. But the gentleman charges 
us with holding that the bloody and deceitful man might 
cut his o>< n throat, and as a reward for this we promise 
him eternal life in the future world. This charge we pro- 
nounced slanderous and false, and challenged him to show 
where we ever preached this, or where it was found in 
any of our writings. You will recollect, in the progress 
of the argument in proof of his position, our friend quoted 
this text — "Fear n t them which kill the body, but are not 
able to kill the soul: but rather fear him who is able to de- 
stroy both soul and body in hell." I proved the word 
Gehenna, rendered hell here, in the original signification 
had no reference to a place or state of misery in the fu- 
ture world. And I challenged my friend to produce a 
single solitary term from the Bible, which, in its original 
signification, meant a place of punishment in the future 
world; but he was not able to do it. And I now challenge 
any divine to produce such a word. It is not to be found. 
Gehenna was the name of a valley south of Jerusalem, in 
which criminals were sometimes executed and burned — 
where every thing offensive was thrown from the city, 
and fires were kept constantly burning to consume it. — 
Hence, arose the saying in regard to this place, "where 
the worm dieth not and the fire is not quenched." 

I showed that the power to be feared, spoken of in the 
text, was not the Almighty. The context clearly shows 



340 A DISCUSSION 

that Christ was warning his disciples not to fear those who 
would persecute, and scourge, and torture their bodies — 
the civil power, that had power to inflict these minor pun- 
ishments — but fear the Sanhedrim, which could not only 
inflict these punishments, but could, after they had taken 
the life, burn the body to ashes in Gehenna. This had no 
reference to the future world. 

Again: another main text of our friend, is that of the 
sin against the Holy Ghost, which the Savior says "has 
no forgiveness in this world nor in the world to come." 1 
proved from the testimony of Dr. Clarke that the phrases 
this world, and the world to come, mean the Jewish dispen- 
sation and the Christian, which was to follow; and that 
this sin of blasphemy was one of the greatest offences 
known to the Mosaic law, and subjected the offender to the 
punishment of death. The law never absolved any one 
who committed this sin from the death of the body, though 
the individual might repent and mercy be extended to the 
soul. This has no reference to the future world. 

We said that the doctrine of endless suffering was at war 
with the doctrine of grace and the design of God's moral 
government Endless suffering is a punishment infinitely 
disproportioned to the desert of sin. You recollect I show- 
ed you that sin, from its very nature, could not deserve 
endless punishment. For sin is finite, and therefore can- 
not deserve an unlimited punishment. And the God of 
Justice would not inflict endless pains for transient crimes. 
Such a doctrine is at war with every principle of justice 
and mercy in the universe of God. It is at war with the 
best principles and feelings of the human heart — at war 
with the desires and prayers of all christians, of every 
land. No one can pray for the endless misery of his fel- 
low beings. The idea is horrible to think of. Language 
cannot describe the terribleness of endless wo! Imagi- 
nation cannot conceive its horror ! For the doctrine main- 
tains that after years unnumbered by all the stars of hea- 
ven, and all the grains of sand on the sea shore, by all the 
spears of gra^s, by all the leaves of the forest — after all 
these inconceiveable ages, multiplied by millions of mil- 
lions, have passed away, and this number multiplied by all 



ON UNIVERSALISM. 34 1 

'the attorns of which our globe is composed have in endless 
time transpired. — After this should the inquiry be made 
by a soul in some dark corner of perdition — how long, 
how long merciful God — how long is my agony yet to con- 
tinue? The answer would come thrilling back, through 
the dark caverns of an endless hell: Eternity! Eternity! 
Will not see the end of your sufferings. Why, were all 
the agonies of al! that ever suffered, or ever will suffer yet 
upon the earth — all combined, it would not amount to 
what will be indured by one poor soul in this endless hell, 
for after he had endured more than all that has yet been 
suffered by all sentient beings in the universe, an endless fu- 
ture would still be before him, through which he must eter- 
nally continue to writhe in utter hopelessness, excrutiating 
anguish and wo; and yet it is contended, that this doctrine 
is founded on God's justice, mercy and benevolence! But 
I tell you as I have all along told you, that it throws a 
dark and impenetrable cloud over the Divine character. 
It hides all that is to be adored in Deity, it shrouds the 
world in gloom, and clothes the heavens in sackcloth, and 
it would fill all heaven with lamentation and mourning! ! 
This doctrine 1 repeat is one of the most horrible that the 
human mind can conceive, and it must have arisen in the 
dark ages of the world, when the most cruel and malig- 
nant passions of men ruled: When the injured party not be- 
ing able fully to glut his fiendish and malicious hate, on his 
victim here, conceived during his madening fit of revenge, 
inflamed to the highest pitch, of an endless hell in the fu- 
ture world, in which he could satiate his fell revenge, by 
the thought that his enemy would suffer for ever and ever 
world without end. Such is the nature of this doctrine. 
It is at war with the justice of God, and w T ith every prin- 
ciple of His government. This doctrine maintains that 
in as much as the sinner in his ignorance, and folly and 
darkness, has concluded to go on in sin through life, when 
he goes into the future world, God will apprentice him to 
the devil, where of necessity he will continue in sin, and 
blaspheme to all eternity — where a possibility of better- 
ing his condition will be eternally excluded. Do you not 
my friends see the awful nature of this doctrine? You 

29 



342 A DISCUSSION 

will recollect that when good old Job was called to test 
his integrity, and when his afflictions were so great, his 
own wife seemed to turn against him, and said dost thou 
still retain thine integrity? Curse God and die. But oh 
no, he knew the character of God, and the character of 
His Government. And had the fullest confidence that this 
scene of affliction would not last always. That that dark 
impenetrable cloud that now hung over him, would pass 
away ere long, and the light of God's countenance would 
again beam upon him, and he should be fully compensated 
for all his affliction. Well so it was, we said to you, prov- 
ing most emphatically, that Job's last days were his best 
days. He was rewarded double for all he had suffered. 
And both show this was in accordance with the character 
and mercy of God, and the principles of his moral gov- 
ernment. This will always be the result of all the 
punishments inflicted by the Almighty. His dealings are 
just the opposite of the doctrine of endless misery — and 
such an awful doctrine cannot be the doctrine of Christ, 
which breathes peace on earth and good will to men. 

My friends I want you to reflect on these things. And 
I tell you that our own observation and experience, in ac- 
cordance with the arguments adduced, when summed up, 
all go to show conclusively that the doctrine of endless 
misery is false, conceived in a dark and barbarous age. 
The fruits of man's ignorance, superstition, degradation, 
and cruelty, into which he had fallen. 

You remember I told you this doctrine was never taught 
in the primitive ages of the church. It was not till the 
age of darkness had rendered men ignorant, superstitious, 
savage and cruel, that this doctrine was incorporated in- 
to the church, as a doctrine of Christianity. 

In the course of my argument 1 have reminded you of 
the effects of this doctrine, to show you that it could not 
have arisen in the great fountain of infinite wisdom and 
benevolence. And that it must be at war with the nature 
of the only true and living God. Have we not reminded 
you of the fact that it has been the means of driving ma- 
ny to dispair and madness, and many to commit suicide. 

How many of the unfortunate victims confined in our 



ON UNIVERSALIS^. 343 

Lunatic Asylums have been brought there in consequence 
of the preaching of this doctrine of endless wo, which 
has driven reason from its throne. And yet our friend 
has been laboring to show that this is the peaceable doctrine 
of Christ and of the Bible. But we have had the happiness 
of maintaining the contrary. And now I am willing to 
leave these arguments with you. For if this discussion 
which I have no doubt will be faithfully reported, shall be 
thoroughly and candidly examined, I have no fear at all 
but what sufficient testimony and argument will be found 
to fully sustain the positions 1 have taken. 

Now in conclusion, I remark that I verily believe that 
fifty years will not transpire before the doleful tidings of 
endless misery will not be heard in our land. 

I have told you that I believed our friend Power was 
under conviction, and that his conviction would grow 
stronger and stronger, till he would be converted in- 
to the glorious light and liberty of the doctrine of the 
world's salvation. 

I told you that some of the most eminent divines had 
been converted to this doctrine — and of that number ma- 
ny Preachers of the Methodist church, whose minds be- 
came enlightened and their faith enlarged to behold this 
glorious truth; and that believers were almost daily ad- 
ded to our church. And my friends this light will spread 
— the cause is onward and upward, and we bid it God 
speed! And what little ability we have, we shall devote 
to this cause. And I hope all errors and superstition, 
and relics of barbarism, and especially this horrible dog- 
ma of endless wo, will vanish from the world. In fact 
this awful sentiment has already began its journey to the 
shades of oblivion — and before fifty years shall pass a- 
way it will not be known. We say it is going to the 
tomb, and we wish it a peaceful journey there, never to 
rise again from the grave of forgetfulness to curse the 
world any more. 

And now, in view of the opposite sentiments, that God 
is the Great Father and benefactor of us all, and of their 
happy effect, we can adopt the language of the poet. 



344 A DISCUSSION 

" Oh would mankind but make fair truth their guide-, 

u And force the helm from prejudice and pride. 

M Were once these maxims fixed that God 'scur friend,. 

M Virtue our good, and happiness our end; 

u How soon would reason o*er the world prevail, 

u And pride and fraud and superstition fail. 

4i None hereafter with groundless fear would accuse, 

u The Almighty of being cruel and severe, 

".As favoring secis, or nations, men or times, 

u But our own and other's good, would each hour employ, 

" And all things smile with universal joy." 

[mr. power's twentieth and closing speech.] 

Gentlemen Judges. — I am somewhat gratified that the- 
gentleman had a scrap of poetry to fill up the time. It 
was as convenient for him, as a sentence sometimes is for 
a printer to fill out his column. 

I have a few passing remarks to make before entering 
on the main review. 

First respecting the gentleman's prophesy which he has, 
reiterated, that in fifty years the dogma of endless perdi- 
tion to the wicked will not be tolerated in the Church — 
Probably a few present will live to see whether he is a 
true or a false prophet. I w r ill give the congregation 
a few facts with reference to the signs of the times that 
they may judge. 

A few years ago, Universalists stood out before the pub- 
lic challenging discussion almost from morning till noon, 
and from noon till night. Now the gospel we preach is a 
gospel of peace. And we do not willingly go to war. But 
Universalists cried "Orthodoxy is afraid to come into com- 
bat, they know the weakness of their positions, and are 
afraid of us," till this began to have considerable influence 
on many who were ignorant of the true character of the sys 
tern and we have finally taken the field. And what is. 
the result % Why, already they begin to cry quarters !. 
persecution, &c. And it is like bringing culprits to judg- 
ment now, to bring them up to their principles. These 
are some of the signs of the times. We discuss the sub- 
ject with one and when they see that he is refuted, they say 
"he was not so well prepared for the work, but there- are- 



ok universalis:*, 345 

teW whe can maintain the doctrine against all opposi* 
lion." Well we meet others again, and we are referred to 
some others who are able fully and triumphantly to defend 
the system. So we can never get to the right one who 
can defend the doctrine. Hence the signs of the times 
are that in ten or twelve years, it will be almost impossible 
to get an intelligent Universalist into discussion, on fair 
and honorable principles, that will fully develope the sys- 
tem. If you attempt it, they will cry persecution! perse* 
cution ! ! 

The gentleman has raised the inquiry who can pray 
for the doctrine of endless misery? I would ask him if 
he can pray for the immortality of Deity ? No, because 
it is not a subject of prayer. No one would pray for the 
endless duration of heaven, or no one but an idiot, because 
it is not a subject of prayer. No one would pray for the 
truth of the existence of electric fluid ; for it already ex- 
ists. And it is equally true, that such a thing as God's 
moral government exists, and that ail will be rewarded 
under it according to their works, the righteous shall have 
eternal life and the wicked eternal death, or suffer endless 
misery; but these facts which have an unchanging exist- 
ence are not matters of prayer but of faith. 

We now pass to a review of the whole argument. We 
have had occasion before to mention the gentleman's mode 
of warfare — that he has traveled over much of his affirm- 
ative, instead of responding to mine, and consequently 
makes it necessary for me to go back and glance at his po- 
sition on his affirmative. I shall confine my review to 
three points. 

I. Notice the prominent positions in which the gentle- 
man left his affirmative. 

II. Present you with the strength of his arguments and 
proofs against my affirmative. 

III. Give you the cardinal proofs and arguments in 
support of my affirmative. 

First, The position in which the gentleman's affirmative 
was left when we closed the first question. 

It is a matter of importance that you understand this, 
that you may be able to compare the relative clearness of 

*29 



346 A DISCUSSION 

the two questions, and the relative strength of the proof 
on which these questions rest for their eternal duration. 

It was conceded in the outset by my friend that man is 
a depraved and unholy being, — that he is practically de- 
praved, wicked and rebellious. And it was also conceded 
that no individual can enjoy God and heaven without being 
made holy. You will recollect that in prosecuting his 
affirmative he was brought up to this point. We adduced 
the cases of men of different countries who left the world 
in a moment unholy. 1st. The case of the twenty three 
thousand Israelites who fell at one time in the wilderness un- 
der the frowns of Jehovah. 2nd. The thousands and tens 
of thousands of infidels, atheists, prostitutes and the most 
corrupt beings of our race, who were sent into eternity 
suddenly, either by their own hands, or by the hands of 
the assassin, in France. 3d. The battle of New Orleans. 
At which the British commander, as it is reported, prom- 
ised the soldiery if they would take the city, as a reward 
of their bravery, the city and especially the females of the 
city should be given into their hands. But through the 
interpositions of Providence in favor, of right and female 
innocence and virtue, the soldiers, while their hearts were 
burning with lust and crime, in whole ranks were instant- 
ly hurried into eternity. In reference to all these cases 
we asked the gentleman if they went into the eternal world 
in a state of moral purity fit for heaven ? And you re- 
member he was compelled to answer No. They left the 
world m a state of depravity and un holiness. We then 
asked him if they went into heaven in that state of cor- 
ruption and unholiness? He said No. Again, if they 
were in a state of consciousness, — personal, individual, 
conscious existence, in the future world '{ To this he ans- 
wered Yes. 

Here then according to his own showing, and in accord- 
ance with matter of fact, men do enter into the future 
world unholy and unfit for heaven ; and with this unholy 
character they never can enter heaven. And there must 
be a change wrought in them from sin to holiness before 
they can enter heaven. This cannot be wrought in this 
world : for they have already passed the bounds of time.. 



ON UNIVERSALISM. 347 

Where now does his position stand? You will recollect 
that in the commencement of the discussion he staked his 
whole system on the change that is to take place in the 
resurrection. You remember his reiterated reference. "It 
is sown in corruption; it is raised in in corruption. It is 
sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weak- 
ness, it is raised in power. For this corruptible must 
put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immor- 
tality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incor- 
ruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality , then 
shall be brought to pass the saying that is written "Death 
is swallowed up in victory." "Then," says the gentle- 
man, "all moral defilement shall be taken away from ev- 
ery individual of our race, and all will be fitted for heaven, 
all be equal unto the angels, and be made the children of 
God being the children of the resurrection, and not subject 
to death any more." Now on this point, beyond all doubt, 
he is either correct or incorrect as to the final moral change 
that is to lake place in the resurrection. If he is correct 
in this position on which he staked his whole system, and 
said if it is not proved by this, it could not be provefl from 
the Bible, then it follows that all men and women, accord- 
ing to his own showing, that have died unreconciled to God, 
cannot enter heaven till the resurrection change. Conse- 
quently, according to his own admission and in accordance 
with matter of fact, some have been for ages, and are still 
suffering misery in the future world. Here is in fact, the 
whole strength of the gentleman's system. Being sorely- 
pressed with the difficulty, he virtually rejected the whole 
argument based on the resurrection. He said that God 
could in three or five minutes after death effect a change 
in the soul as well as before death. This, we say, to the 
endless disgrace of his system is an actual abandonment of 
the acknowledged strongest proof to be found in the Bible, 
proof in reference to which he has said, if it did not prove 
his system no other proof under heaven could. But allow- 
ing him the benefit of abandoning this his strongest posi- 
tion, and resting his system on the power of God to effect 
the change in another way, we asked him to put his finger 
on a single declaration of God's word, that says or gives 



>348 A DISCUSSION 

the least intimation that a man dying in crime and lust 
and atheism and suicide, in five minutes after he is dead 
will be morally changed, sanctified and taken to heaven. 
Such a declaration cannot be produced — it is not in the 
Bible. Then his whole system rests on a bare assump- 
tion, without the least shadow of proof to sustain it. After 
admitting that men die in the depths of depravity go into 
eternity unholy with hearts full of lust and crime, and 
that they cannot enter heaven in this state, he then rests 
his whole system on the bare assumption, which, no decla- 
ration of God's word will give the least shadow of support, 
that God may in three minutes after they are dead, effect 
a change in the soul that fits them for heaven. And mark, 
here now is his strongest position, and this rests on a she re 
assumption. 

But farther on this subject : we brought up the difficulty 
which cannot be surmounted — allowing his position to be 
correct, that in the resurrection all are subjects of this mor- 
al change. The sacred Scriptures everywhere represent 
Jesus Christ as the personal agent in the resurrection 
change. This is a doctrine that none but an infidel will 
deny — 4hat Jesus Christ will raise the dead. But what 
position does the gentleman occupy on this point? His 
system denies the uncreated divinity of Jesus Christ. Mr. 
Ballou says that he has proved that Jesus Christ is a cre- 
ated and dependent being. And all the standard Universal-- 
ist authors maintain that Christ is a finite created being. 
And when I asked the gentleman if Christ is a created or 
uncreated being ? he refused to give an answer. But we 
charged home on his system that it holds that He is a cre- 
ted finite being; and he did not deny it. We maintained 
—and he did not controvert it — and no other man pos- 
sessed of common intelligence will for a moment contro- 
vert it, — that nothing short of omnipotence can raise the 
dead.-The fact that the Prophets and Apostles raised per- 
sons to life that had died, has nothig to do with this point : 
for they came up with the same bodies with which they 
died — not with the resurrection body. 

We state the points briefly. (1st.) The whole system 
of Universalism depends on the power that will be exer- 



ON UNIVERSALISWL 349' 

ted in the resurrection of the dead. (2d.) The Bible 
maintains that no power but that of Christ will be exerted 
in raising the dead. (3d.) The system maintains that 
Jesus Christ is a created and finite being. And, (4th.) 
nothing short of Almighty- power can raise the dead. — 
Then it follows with all the force of demonstration, that 
ever if Jesus Christ raises the dead, it must be by the om- 
nipotent power of Jehovah, delegated to him. But it is 
impossible that there should be two separate omnipotent 
beings, and impossible for God to delegate His omnipo- 
tence and at the same time keep it himself; hence, in del- 
egating His omnipotence to Jesus Christ, He changes 
from an infinite to a finite being, and ceases to be God; 
and hence, we are landed in absolute atheism 1 This is 
one of the strong pillars of the gentleman's system. 

Again: the gentleman reserved his proofs on his ques- 
tion, to bring up on my affirmative, thinking, doubtless, as 
we intimated at the time, that he could have better suc- 
cess in firing upon his theological enemy from ambush, 
than in the open field. But, unfortunately for him, we 
fully understood his whole ground and manner of attack. 
And it created no alarm, oaly we had to turn aside and 
meet these aide shots as they came along. And, in meet- 
ing this singular position of our opponent, we presented 
you with this view of it — that by no fair interpretation of 
the Bible can it possibly be made to sustain a system that 
releases men from all possible moral obligation in this, 
world — from the necessity of faith, of reformation, of obe- 
dience, of love to God and man, of holiness, and announ- 
ces to him that although he has to be holy before he can 
enter heaven in the future world, yet it is impossible for 
him, by the utmost exertion of all his powers both physical 
and mental, in all crime from birth till death, to keep him- 
self out of heaven ; but if he dies in all the moral pollution 
and crime conceivable, God will in some way, in three 
minutes after death, or at some other time, effect in him 
a change from sin to holiness, and take him to heaven. 
We assert that the word of God can never sustain such a 
position. But the gentleman's system does maintain this. 
Therefore, the Bible can never in whole or in part sus.- 
tain the system of Universalism. 



350 A DISCUSSION 

We will just remark here, in reference to what has been 
said by Mr. D. about handing me over into the hand of 
Mr. Loring, to answer for the charge, which in substance 
I have just stated, against Universalism, that he has ta- 
ken the matter entirely out of his friend's hand. It 
has not been forgotten that on the Sabbath, in the pres- 
ence of probably six hundred persons, he admitted specifi- 
cally the whole charge. And he has virtually, and almost 
in so many words, at different times, fully admitted that 
men cannot, by all they can do, commit crime enough to 
keep them out of heaven; which is the charge I have made; 
so that he has relieved his friend from the task of attempt- 
ing to prove my charge false. Why, this is the Whole 
sum and substance of his system; and to deny the charge 
is to give up Universalism. 

Second. We will now notice the gentleman's strong posi - 
tions in opposition to our affirmative. You will recollect his 
main position here is, that the general judgment and fi- 
nal retribution of man are confined wholly and exclusive- 
ly to this world. In support of this his strongest proofs 
were, (1st.) "He that soweth to the flesh shall of the flesh 
reap corruption; but he that soweth to the spirit shall of 
the spirit reap life everlasting." Against this, we main- 
tained that the retribution, both to him that soweth to the 
flesh and him that soweth to the spirit, which this text 
teaches, is either final, and all that will ever be awarded 
to the one or the other, or it is not. This statement was 
so clear that even a child could understand it. We show- 
ed that if he that sowed to the spirit reaps life everlasting 
exclusively in this world, if he entered heaven at all, it 
would be without everlasting life! 

In like manner we disposed of his quotation from Prov., 
"Behold, the righteous shall be recompensed in the earth, 
much more the wicked and the sinner" — that if the right- 
eous received all his reward in this world, the full recom- 
pense absolutely, he gains nothing by going to heaven, 
for he can have no more there! The gentleman, up to 
his last amen, and his poetry into the bargain, never touch- 
ed these arguments, and they stand against him now, as 
unanswerable truth, The next effort that he made, was 



ON UNIVERSALISM. 351 

lo avoid the force of our argument on the case of Job. — 
He maintained that Job's being blessed in his last days, 
proved that the righteous are fully recompensed in the 
earth. The report will give the argument as it was, and 
if it ever comes before the public it will show that all the 
arguments that have been used by Mr. Doolittle might 
have been brought up in four hours. In reference to this 
case, we showed that if he maintained that the blessings 
Job received, proved that he was fully rewarded for his 
righteousness in the earth — that if the fact that Job had a 
wife and "fair daughters" — whose names the gentleman 
proceeded to give us — and sheep, and camels, and oxen, 
&c, was proof that he was approved of God; on the same 
principle he must admit that every man possessed of these 
things gives sure proof that he is a pious man, and one 
whom God approves; but this is contradicted by a thous- 
and facts. We quoted Christ's words, "Lay up for your- 
selves treasures in heaven" — and showed that he makes 
Christ exhort christians to lay up sheep, and oxen, and 
asses, in heaven. And we assured you that no man of 
intelligence and learning, such as my friend is, would 
peril his reputation before a community, by maintaining 
such a position, unless he was driven into it by the deprav- 
ity of his system. And yet this is one of his strong points 
in opposition to our affirmative! 

Again: there are four distinct positions in refutation of 
the gentleman's negative arguments, which he has never 
touched. Mark that, gentlemen. 

1st. His position in opposition to my affirmative contra- 
dicts the plain word of God. He acknowledged a univer- 
sal judgment. And the Bible is as explicit as language 
can be, that Jesus Christ is to be the judge in the general 
judgment; and this the gentleman did not deny. But this 
world was in existence four thousand years before Christ 
had a being, according to his system. Therefore, as the 
judgment is in this world, he never could have judged 
those who lived at any time during the four thousand 
years before he came into existence, in the world. But, 
as the Bible teaches us that Jesus Christ is the judge of 
the whole world — of every individual of our race, the 



S52 A DISCUSSION 

gentleman's system contradicts the word of God ; for the sys* 
tern says that the world was not judged, during its first four 
thousand years, by Christ, because He was not then in 
existence. But this is one of his strong points of opposition. 

2d. Our next argument. But, sirs, the bird of night 
would as soon come forth at mid-day, to gaze at the sun, 
as the gentleman to look this argument in the face. We 
showed that it is but little less than profanity, to say that 
Jesus Christ could be the judge of the world, now adminis- 
tering the final judgment to every individual of the human 
race, fixing their destiny in eternity, and now be our Me- 
diator before the throne. Mediator and judge at the same 
moment of time, and to the same persons, is an absurdity, 
and an utter impossibility that the Bible can never counte- 
nance. Mr. Doolittle might as well attempt to meet, un- 
armed, the lion of the forest, as to meet this argument. 

3d. Another point he has not touched is, the finite char- 
acter of Jesus Christ, which the system maintains through- 
out. Then the system has to hold this absurdity — this 
impossibility, that the judgment is administered all over 
this rolling ball, to every individual, by a finite being! — 
We maintain, if Jesus Christ be a finite being, it is abso- 
lutely impossible for him to be in America, in Asia, and Af- 
rica, and in every other part of this globe at the same time. 
It is absurd to maintain such a thing. [Mr. Doolittle here 
interrupted, and asked if Mr. Power meant to make the 
congregation believe that he had maintained that Jesus 
Christ was a finite being.] We say that Universalism, 
and its most approved authors, maintain that Jesus Christ 
is a finite being. And we proposed the question to the 
gentleman if he maintained it, and he refused to answer 
as an honorable disputant. I protest against his interrupt- 
ing me in my closing speech. It is too late for him now. 
He has had ample time to review every inch of ground 
that I have taken, and especially this, as the question was 
fairly proposed to him. But, if Mr. Doolittle will say 
before this assembly that I misrepresent him here, and 
that he does believe in the unoriginated divinity of Christ, 
I give you notice it is because I have turned him off from 
his whole platform of Universalism. And I will prove 



OITUXIVERSALISM. 3i>» 

this by his own standard authors, if not by his own wri- 
tings. We tell you this is a point that UniveYsalists dare 
not lock at. And Mr. Doolittle is not the first man that 
has been thrown into difficulty and consternation on this 
point. 

4th. The gentleman staked his whole system on the 
resurrection. And the Bible teaches that the resurrec- 
tion is inseparably connected with Christ's coming to judge 
the world. But his system maintains that Jesus Christ 
came to judge the world eighteen hundred years ago. — 
Then the resurrection either took place at that time or it 
is yet future. If the resurrection is yet future, then the 
judgment is yet future. This position the gentleman 
dared not to touch, and the difficulty still lies against him 
in all its force. 

Third. I will now glance at the preof adduced on my 
affirmative. 

The infinite perfections and wisdom of Deity, saw fit to 
create man an intelligent subject of moral government,' 
and 10 piace him under a government adapted to his na- 
ture in this world. And this system of government holds 
man accountable to eternity, for his moral character in 
this world. 

1. The moral government of God. as revealed in the 
Bible, promises blessings to the pious that cannot be fully 
enjoyed in this world, and threatens privation and misery 
to the wicked that cannot be fully experienced in this 
world, and of absolute necessity must extend into the fu- 
ture world. We quoted a number of texts in proof of this 
position. Among others, this: "And fear not them which 
kill the body but are not able to kill the soul; but rather 
fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in 
hell." This, we contended, has reference to the future 
world. The gentleman undertook to avoid its force by 
making out that the Savior did not exhort his disciples to 
fear God, but a civil power. Fie paraphrased it, "Fear 
not them — the minor civil powers — that have power only 
to kill the body, but rather fear the highest civil authori- 
ty, the Sanhedrim, that has power to destroy both the an- 
imal life and the bodv, in gehenna/' Making the Savior 

30 



354 A DISCUSSION 

give this ridiculous warning to his disciples, not to fear 
those who could take their life, but to fear that civil pow- 
er that could dispose of the body after it is dead. Such a 
position no man would take, unless compelled to it to save 
a sinking system. 

2. I showed that the only condition by which the sin- 
ner could obtain pardon for his sins, and eternal life in 
heaven, and avoid the misery of hell, was faith that works 
by love and purifies tha heart. On this point God has 
either forbidden faith as a condition of salvation in this 
and the future world, or he is perfectly indifferent to it, 
or he has required it of man as a condition of present and 
future salvation. But as we cannot suppose he would for- 
bid faith in man or be indifferent to it, the conclusion is 
resistless that he has commanded it. This argument the 
gentleman passed without a solitary notice. 

3. We showed that as God had revealed his will to 
man, and the manner in which evil can be avoided and 
good secured, in perfect harmony with the perfections of 
His nature, God holds man responsible to a future and fi- 
nal judgment and retribution for the use, or abuse of his 
powers and privileges in this world. We have laid down 
a principle in the interpretation of the word of God, to 
wit: Any interpretation of the Scriptures that contradicts 
matters of fact, and the whole tenor of the Scripture, and 
involves a contradiction, and absurdity, is absolutely false. 
We then showed that the gentleman's interpretation of 
the Scripture, in reference to the general judgment, on 
this principle, is false. We quoted numerous texts to 
show that the Bible connects circumstances and facts, with 
the final coming of Christ that never have taken place in 
the history of our race, are not now taking place, and con- 
sequently must be future, or the Bible proves a failure, 
and infidelity must triumph. Under this head, we addu- 
ced the proof that the coming of Christ for final judgment 
and retribution, is with all the holy angels, (not Roman 
soldiers) infthe*glory of his Father, personally and visibly 
to all the inhabitants of the earth. God's veracity is 
pledged that he shall come "in like manner*' as he ascend- 
ed, after his resurrection. And when he comes in this 



ON UNIVERSALIS!*!. 355 

manner, be shall reward every man according to his 
works. We showed you, too, that in connection with this 
literal and visiblecoming of Christ, the literal world would 
be burned up — "the heavens shall pass away with a great 
noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat; the 
earth also, and the works that are therein, shall be burnt 
up." Also, that in connection with this coming, He will 
change the living and raise the dead, some to everlasting 
life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt — that 
'he dead, small and great, shall stand before God. And 
that, in connection with this solemn and awful coming of 
Jesus Christ literally and visibly in the clouds of heaven, 
in the g-ory of his Father, with the holy angels, all na- 
tions, all men, ail angels, good and bad, every intelligent 
spirit, being and subject in God's universe — none so ob- 
scure as to be overlooked, none so dignified as to be ex- 
empt — all — the first nation on earth and the last that will 
remain, not two or three, but all nations, including every 
individual of every nation that ever has existed or ever 
will exist to the end of time — ail shall appear together at 
the bar of God, there to render a strict account for every 
deed and for every word, and to be judged and receive their 
eternal destiny according to their moral character. He 
will then separate all nations, every individual of every 
nation, according to their moral character, whether form- 
ed under greater or less light, whether Jew or Gentile, 
the good on one hand and the bad on the other, and the 
righteous shall hear the joyful invitation — ''come ye bles- 
sed of my Father inherit the kingdom prepared for you 
from the foundation of the world," while on the other 
hand, the wicked who lived and died in the rejection of 
all offered mercies, at enmity to God, will hear the awful 
sentence — "Depart from me ye cursed into everlasting 
fire prepared for the devil and his angels." 

4. And, gentlemen, we showed you that the very same 
language that God's unerring wisdom has employed to de- 
note the duration of the holiness and happiness of the 
sanctified in heaven, is that employed by the same wisdom 
to describe the duration of the misery of the wicked in the 
future world. The Bible employs the very same language 



*$oh A. DISCUSSION 

to denote the duration of the misery of the wicked that ii 
uses to denote the endless existence of Jehovah. And* the 
very same argument that would limit the duration of the 
misery of the damned, would limit the duration of the 
happiness of the righteous— ^disrobe Deity of the attribute 
of eternity, and finally blot Him out of existence, and turn 
the universe into an eternal chaos. 

5. A f^ew remarks on the point made by our friend.— 
He would make the impression that, to prove the endless 
punishment of the 'finally impenitent, we have to find a lo- 
cal place or prison, and a literal lake of fire that will en- 
dure without end to apply the term everlasting to, then it 
would be of some use to us in the argument. This is the 
sophistry resorted to by all who attempt to maintain the 
system we are opposing. And when we exposed the ab- 
surdity, and showed that punishment is not based on local- 
ity of place, but on the conscious existence and immortali- 
ty of the soul, he was greatly surprised, that the mere fic- 
tion ho had set up for us was blown into oblivion by the 
breath of truth. And -.Mr. Doolittle is not the only on& 
that has been mortified by the exposure of this sophistry. 

This false argument, for which so much is claimed by 
Universalists, derives ail its apparent plausibility from- 
one of two assumptions: First, that punishment is gn 
abstract principle, and as such, must be proved to have an 
endless existence, before a step is gained in proving the 
everlasting punishment of those who die unholy. The er- 
ror, not to say absurdity, lies in claiming for suffering or 
punishment an abstract existence, when in fact, it has of 
absolute necessity but a relative existence; andean be 
found nowhere in the Universe but in connection with some 
being susceptible of pain.. But a moments candid reflec- 
tion is sufficient to satisfy any. honest intelligent mind of 
this fact. 

But secondly, the more general assumption is, that pun- 
ishment depends on locality of place. Hence the cry 
"prove a endless hell, prison, lake, fire, &c.,to put sinners 
into or you fail of proving endless misery for the wicked/' 
You have heard Mr. D's. demands on this subject. And 
there but too much reason to fear that not a few havje ta 



OX UNIVERSALIS}!. 






alured by the delusive cry into that misery, the existence 
of which they deny. 

To expose "his error, we have only to deny the assump- 
tion, arid oppose to it matters of fact, of which the world 
is full. Namely, that neither happiness, nor misery de- 
pends for existence on locality, but on the susceptibility 
of man to enjoy happiness or suffer pain. Local circum- 
stances, as a mere contingency, may increase, or diminish 
pain or happsness : but take away man's susceptibility and 
all the localities and circumstances in the universe, could 
never produce the one or the other. For instance, take the 
man who is suffering bodily pain, and translate him to any 
localitynn the world* and while his sensibility, and the 
cause of the pain remain in his physical nature, he will 
stiil be a sufferer, independent of all local situation 

And furthermore, let desease result in temporal death ; 
and if there was no power superior to his own to effect his 
resurrection, he would remain endlessly the subject of this 
death, independent absolutely, of all locality of place.— 
And the same is true of our mental nature, and of our 
moral and spiritual sufferings and death. Take the man 
who is unholv, living in unbelief, and im rebellion against 
God — his carnal mh:d is enmity against God, and being 
morally dead, in tresspasses and in sin, he is unhappy-. 
But does lus misery or punishment depend on locality of 
place or external circumstances? So far from it, that in 
the midst of the splendors of the palace and the applause 
of "a thousand lords," with a scepter in his hand, an em- 
pire at his feet, and the world ministering to his happiness 
like a Belshazzar, under a consciousness of gilt he trem- 
bles at the " writing upon the wall." So far then is it 
from being true, that the punishment of the wicked de- 
pends for its existence on locality of place or circum- 
stance, that these things have no necessary connection 
with it whatever. You see therefore that the facts in the 
case are, — the punishment of the sinner includes first, 
his susceptibility of mental pain or suffering; and second- 
ly, the depravity and guilt of his heart. Thus destitute. 
morally, of the image, the life, the communion of God in 
heart* he must be unhappy at any point or place 



353 A DISCUSSION 

God's universe. And if he passes oat of ibis life into 
the future world, thus spiritually and morally "dead in 
trespasses and in sins," he enters upon the "second death, " 
or a state of anguish and suffering. And this "second 
death," you see, does not depend on locality or place, or 
external circumstances, but on the moral and spiritual na- 
ture and character of the sinner. He has in his own soul 
the "worm that never dieth, and the fire that is never 
quenched." And now there are but two points at which it 
is possible to attempt to escape the conclusion — the endless 
misery of those who leave this world unholy. Either to 
prove that they are morally changed and made holy after 
death, and in the future world, or to deny the immortali- 
ty of the soul. 

But where is the proof of this moral change after death? 
The advocates of Universalism have been challenged 
from the time they first uttered this dangerous and unscrip- 
tural dogma, to produce one single declaration from the 
word of God to show that sinners are thus reformed and 
morally changed in the future world, but they have utter- 
ly failed. One such text would forever settle this con- 
troversy, and secure a universal triumph for the system. 

Seeing the achievement would be so splendid for Uni- 
versalism, why is not the proof adduced? For this invin- 
cible reason, it is not in the Bible. And if the Bible be 
true, it is not in the universe. And its advocates are found 
pleading with men to peril their eternal interests on the 
corrupt dogmas of the system, not only in the absence of 
every particle of proof from the Scriptures, but directly 
in the face of the authority of that holy record. 

Fearful responsibility indeed ! Who will be able me< 
it at the judgment bar of God? 

It is true, Mr. Doolittie tried to show that such a re 
ormatory change will take place at the resurrection. But 
you all recollect his signal failure. He did not satisfy 
himself, nor any one else with the attempt. Recollecting 
doubtless, his admissions that thousands of our race have 
gone into eternity depraved and unholy, and if no change 
is effected till the resurrection, they must suffer future 
punishment for ages, which would utterly ruin his sys- 



& 



ON UNIVERSALISM. 359 

tern, he abandoned his ground and endeavored to fix this 
moral change immediately after death. But what evi- 
dence did he bring that such is the fact? Not a particle, 
above his own bare assertion ! While we showed that af- 
ter death saving faith is absolutely impossible; and that 
the wrath of God abidcth on him that is in unbelief) as 
long as he is in that moral state. But he must continue in 
that moral state, while he has a being, for faith that saves 
from sin, or justifies, is impossible in the future world, 
therefore his condition moral l) r , is unchangeable, and his 
punishment must last as long as his existence. 

And now as we have shown that the punishment of the 
wicked is based on, and has its existence in the susceptibili- 
ty, depravity, and consequent conscious guilt of the soul, 
and not necessarily on locality or place, or external cir- 
cumstances, and that a moral change from sin to holiness 
after death is, according to the Bible, absolutely impossi- 
ble, it follows beyono 1 all evasion, that the time of the sin- 
ner's punishment in the eternal world, can be limited only 
by the duration of his existence. Hence there is no alter- 
native but to deny the immortality of the soul, or admit, 
according to the doctrine of the scriptures of the Old and 
New Testaments, the endless punishment of the finally 
impenitent, in a state of immortality in the eternal world. 

But God has stamped immortality upon the intellectual 
constitution and nature of man, but man has corrupted 
that nature, with depravity and sin, and in the abuse of 
heaven's best gifts, has kindled a fire in his own soul, 
which, if not extinguished in this life under the provisions 
of the love of God, in an application of the atoning blood 
of Christ by the Holy Spirit, will in the future world con- 
stitute his "hell," — the " lake of lire," the "eternal fire," 
the "fire that shall never be quenched," the undying 
M worm," the " second death," his endless punishment in 
eternity. We now close, and leave you to decide on the 
proofs and arguments adduced. 

We return our acknowledgments to the community, for 
the orderly and serious manner in which they have at- 
tended this discussion throughout. And should we never 
see you again in time, w r e exhort you to prepare for eter- 



860 A DISCUSSION 

nity, that we may meet in heaven. In regard to my op- 
ponent I regret to say, that he has indulged in more dis. 
courteous personalities, than any one I have discussed this 
subject with. However, I will excuse him, and charge 
them upon the depravity of his system. 

To you Gentlemen Judges, we return our thanks for 
the patient and impartial manner in which you have dis- 
charged your duties; and we hope to remember your best 
interests in our supplications before the throne of heaven- 
ly grace. 



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